WWYD?

[elephantsaregreen]

Sigh. There seem to be a lot of threads on here about men who need dumping and I am wondering if mine is one of them.

I've posted before on 'do I suck it up' and 'WWSGD'.

Things aren't right between us and he won't talk to me about it.

The last week of work this year was so incredibly hard. I have had a massively difficult 12 months at work and I think I almost had burnout. I was so totally exhausted, tired, fragile and drained. I cried at the drop of a hat and couldn't follow complex conversations for a few days.

My DP well, he barely noticed. He didn't lift a finger extra, he didn't even ask me how I was doing. All my normal chores continued and even though he had a couple of days at home while I was still at work, he didn't pitch in more around the house. He offered me zero comfort. I think it's fair to say I was as unwell as I have ever been mentally and I had to cope with it all on my own.

Thank goodness we went away for a few days and stayed with friends. They were really supportive of me and offered to watch the kids if I wanted a nap, etc.

This isn't new. He is the quintessential man of few words, introverted and has depressive tendencies. But he won't talk about any of that. If I try to talk about stuff he gets annoyed, feels 'got at' and stonewalls me. I feel like I've been beating my head against a brick wall. For years.

I have been seeing a counselor and am thinking through what it would mean to split. We have two children 4 + 3 and own a house together and I can't even begin to imagine what it would mean financially. But of course, I am also spending time worrying about him and what it would mean to his circumstances.

How do I muster the strength to dissolve this household and family for what feels like selfish reasons? Because I feel like I want to be with a man who behaves as if I matter and who cares about what I might be going through?

Hi thanks for checking back in. The last two days have been relaxed. I've done lots of reading my book and he has had time to tinker in his garage. Things feel less strained but.. well, I still feel pretty ignored. As a person. but to be fair and honest he is doing more things around the house at the moment, more laundry, cooking etc. (It does make me wonder if he is stepping it up because he senses trouble and will retract once he feels the storm has passed)

I had specifically asked him to talk about our relationship before I go back to work but he hasn't raised anything and I go back tomorrow.

I feel quite confused now because I 'feel' better, less upset etc, but I am still very uninspired by our relationship. There are some pretty fundamental differences between us, our worldview is quite different, intellectually we aren't a good match either.

I think I will raise the topic with him soon about how hurt I was that he didn't look after me a bit more a couple of weeks ago when I was very very low and stressed and how he, once again, avoided talking about things. I will, as always, start by pointing out the things I appreciate about him. I'm going to try to muster the courage to tell him that the differences between us are becoming really obvious to me and harder to overlook or gloss over (without the detail). And if I can, I'll tell him that I have been debating if our relationship perhaps has run it's course.

It's just sooooooo hard because the lack of connection between us from my pov is almost the only thing that is a problem. The rest of our lives together is pretty smooth and good.

And curiosity, to answer your question, no, he has never been able to really 'talk'. So it does feel like I am asking to be someone he isn't. If he really 'cant' step up not just 'won't'. In fact other than superficial or household/family operational issues, I can't talk to him about much at all.

It's perfectly possible that he has been feeling depressed but am I really selfish for not feeling like I can't take responsibility for that? (I can almost guarantee that if I bring stuff up tonight, he'll start talking about himself and his situation rather than really listening and trying to understand me and my feelings)

I always end up feeling like I am 'punishing' him by wanting to talk about stuff. At least that is how he reacts.

Can he talk to the dc/meet their emotional needs?

You may feel better because of letting some things out on here rather than because of anything he has done.

You seem as though you are being very distant and considered in your interactions with him. Why do you think this is? He might want emotional distance but you do not but you seem to be creating it is your responses to his way of interacting with you. What would happen if you were just completely hysterical? Do you feel like you have to keep the level of your emotional responses in check?

Sorry that should be:
He might want emotional distance but you do not. You seem to be creating distance in your responses to his way of interacting with you.

iPhone, twins...

heh. hysterical. I have thought about that sometimes. My best friend thinks I should get really angry and see what happens. and to answer your question it's hard to say with the kids. they are still pretty young but I would say he is very good at meeting their needs, with cuddles etc.

I had a good long talk with him last night. He reacted well in that he didn't get defensive. He got tearful and explained how depressed he has been, he apologized for not being there for me when I was unwell. We talked about how he could look after himself more. I also suggested we do a 'date night' and do more for our actual relationship. (But again, I feel cynical because I know if I don't organise it, it won't happen)

It was actually a really good talk, but half-way through, he did his usual thing which is listen (apparently) but not engage. so I feel very cynical. I pointed out that we have had this conversation many times before. And maybe this is a sign that we have some difference between us which may be too big. He had no comment to that.

I definitely feel better, but tbh I do feel skeptical and I still can tell that I still feel withdrawn from him. It will take a deliberate effort for me to make an effort with him. I so tired of lack of attention/affection, rejection, pecks on the check, micro-second hugs, no spontaneous contact, etc.

This is also a part of me that knows how different we are when it comes to intellectual/emotional stuff. So I wonder if it's inevitable that we'll split at some point anyway.

But I suppose time will tell if that is the case!

And curiosity, there is another element in all of this. If you're up for it, check out this earlier thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1099938-WWSGS-What-would-Shirely-Glass-say-follow-on-from-how-to-tell-if-Marriage-can-survive-an-affair

Glad I am on the same lines as your best friend!

I honestly think what you last posted sounds hopeful. It does sound like there is love in the relationship. I think you would know if he was not meeting the dc's needs and he did open up a crack when you spoke to him. I think the crux is what I've said all along - you desperately need to be able to communicate and relate style couples counselling would be the best idea. He doesn't sound happy either and his depression may be a problem. Has he sought any help for himself?

You seem to want to try and fix the relationship as a preference to leaving it but if he won't go to couples counselling I doubt the problem, which I believe is that you aren't able to communicate even very necessary information with each other, is very unlikely to change. I suppose it is possible you could just keep needling him and Molly coddling him and the relationship until he was able to talk but I think there are also problems from your side - being very measured in your responses and feeling cynical (probably a result of feeling fatigued with his lack of openness) and you are clearly tired... So it would be vastly superior to go to counselling!

Reading your other thread adds more useful info, will have a proper dig in a mo, thanks!

Ultimately though you need to be able to function normally in your relationship to be able to function normally in life so it isn't selfish to feel how you are. You got together and lots of things have happened quickly, it is quite normal to take a while and have a bit of difficulty adjusting.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response. I really appreciate your help and insight.

I will suggest to him again (strongly) that we go for counseling together, but tbh I think he needs individual support as well. He needs help dealing with his depression and taking steps to sort his own life out. I feel like I have been carrying him now for a while.

The very very deep deep fear is that we are not actually suited for one another. Before we found out we were pregnant I was seriously considering parting ways.

There is a part of me that doesn't want things to get better because if the fundamental differences are too big then even if he was the best version of himself, I still wouldn't be happy and then neither would he.

That was very hard to type out loud. and I feel pretty awful for even thinking it.

Just to butt in, my DH is a bit like yours when it comes to emotional connection, but is fine in pretty much every other way.

The way I deal with it is not to rely on him for certain kinds of emotional support - I have friends for that. It's frustrating sometimes but I know he loves me.

No one person can meet all our needs.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't keep trying to communicate, via counselling or whatever, and don't assume he doesn't care.

When I get home from work, I would love it if my DH asked me about my day but he never does. I always ask him about his day but it ends up like an interrogation session rather than a conversation. After 15+ years together, I found out recently that he thinks it's rude and intrusive to ask lots of questions, and that if anything happened to me during the day I would tell him about it without needing to be asked.

So, that's just how he is and overall I think our relationship is worth sticking to.

Obviously your situation is different so I'm not telling you what to do, just offering another perspective.

Hope you can find a resolution.

Thanks TheFarSide. That is similar advice that I have received in previous threads.

It's a very difficult situation because I don't want to be 'needy' and I don't actually think I am all things considered, but I end up feeling very 'needy' because of his underwhelming response to me.

I can't count the number of times I have felt completely rejected in bed, in the lack of hugs/kisses, and so much more. He doesn't even sit on the same couch as me.

This is really the crux of the matter. Can I accept him for who he is, including his extremely introverted personality? Or not?

How far should we bend ourselves for the sake of the relationship? Especially when we don't perceive our partner bending to meet us half-way?

One step at a time elephants I think. Tell him how you feel, don't make any promises and see if he will go to counselling.

I think if you were capable of relying on friends for this support you probably would by now. Seems like the main thing is there are just certainthings you need from a partner. He might be able to provide them yet or you might find that you are just not suited.

Do you think I should insist on counseling, or give him time to sort out his own depression first?

Depends if he is just feeling down or actually depressed. He needs to go to the GP and find out. Sounds likely he might be depressed tbh and that might be why he is so disconnected. He needs to speak to the GP to find out.

I'm not sure what couples counselling would say about counselling if you thought he was depressed but refusing to go to the GP. Maybe I would call them and see what your options are. He said he feels depressed but people can say that when they just mean "down" so it would be logical to get him to do something about that first yes. His depression could also be the source of your unfulfillment and if he sorted that out things might improve.

Bear in mind if he is depressed that does not mean you are required to provide endless support at great cost to you either. Make sure you do consider yourself and what you are able to provide in terms of support for him.

I think you should push with counselling.

Some people are very introverted and don't communicate but this sounds pretty extreme - hardly touching you, not sitting on the same sofa?!

Obviously I don't know him but from what you've said it doesn't sound to me as though he can/will change :(

HaveaHappy

Thanks for chipping in. and thanks also Curiosity for your ongoing advice.

I want him to be happy. I want to be happy. I guess the question is, even if he was really happy, would it still be the kind of relationship I really yearn for?

(Got my next counseling appointment in 2 weeks, sheesh, I can't wait)

ARg.

Elephants, you asked this morning: How far should we bend ourselves for the sake of the relationship?

Now, "bending yourself" is the exact impression that comes to mind when I read your threads. I haven't used it because I was afraid of projecting.

In short - and this isn't what you want to hear - you should never "bend yourself" out of shape, or into another version of you, for any relationship whatsoever. It gives you stress-related illnesses and damages your mental health. That feeling is a universal symptom of those who are in abusive relationships.

Someone who loves you loves you. If you have to change yourself to fit their idea of who you 'should' be, they either don't love you enough or they are manipulating you (or both, obv.)

I am strongly in favour of finding yourself a no-nonsense counsellor: not for couples counselling, but to help you get your self back.

exact impression expression

If he is depressed then treatment for depression might go a long way to improving all of the behaviour that is making you so unhappy and lonely. Or it might not. Only time will tell. We don't even know if he'll go to the doc yet though.

I had counselling and my counsellor was very good. She helped me get my head clear so that I was able to clarify what I was feeling and then communicate what I was feeling to my DH in a non-accusatory way. This felt really empowering, and got me out of that awful needy trap.

It's basic stuff and you may have covered it already, but saying "I feel neglected when you sit on the other sofa" elicits a more positive response than "why won't you ever sit next to me?".

I learned how to get my message across to DH so he didn't feel under attack. It emerged that being on the receiving end of losts of "why don't you ever blah blah" was making him feel inadequate and helpless, so he was just clamming up.

Obviously it would be good if you could both attend counselling together, but I do agree with Grace's suggestion that a good counsellor will help you get yourself back.

Gosh. You really hit the nail on the head for me itsgrace. Unfortunately I've had shitty role-modeling in this regard. My mum is in a relationship that in my opinion, is emotionally abusive and (I don't use those terms lightly).

I wouldn't ever call my partner abusive, but he can be very neglectful and it can feel a teensy bit passive aggressive at times. But I am a social worker and am often accused of being over-analytical. (although one of my best friends reminds me that just because you are over analysing something doesn't mean you are wrong.)

Thank you for your strong and affirming advice everyone. It is hard to hear though.

I feel terrified at the idea of breaking up. It would be a long hard process. it would be very one-sided and very very hard on him. It would feed into his already low self-esteem and negative self-image of himself.

Also logistically it would be hard. (financially etc).

I like how you put it Thefarside. I need to get myself back.

Although, I should add, I don't doubt that he loves me.

It's like.. (gosh it's hard to articulate) but it's like he loves me for me, but that parts of me are unnecessary, superfluous if you will. and they get in the way.

Is that bending, when you feel you are reducing yourself?

Yes, I think that probably is "bending" but the reasons for it may not be what you are identifying them as. If he is a person who will not talk and tell you why he behaves in a certain way it is logical that you will have been tying yourself up in knots for years trying to explain his reasons.

If you are going to move forward with him I think it is pretty important he articulates the truth that is at the root of this. One of the most difficult things about living with someone like this is feeling like everything is always about you, never getting a response or some personal feelings makes it all feel so one-sided but it may not be that he doesn't have feelings, just he never expresses them.

He might just be very closed off as a person or he might be depressed but all of this speculating and having to build yourself, your feelings and your relationship on speculation is like building a house on sand. He just needs have input - for your sanity and probably for his. Even if he has told you he doesn't like your "drama" that isn't the same as telling you he doesn't love that emotional and feeling part of you. If he doesnt give any emotion to the relationship he will be entirely dependent on you to provide all of that essential part of the relationship. Not giving any contribution to that element, which he may find difficult but be capable of or just not think is important to him, makes you take total responsibility for it.

You need him to answer at the very least whether he is willing to contribute but finds it hard for various reasons or whether he really does not think it is important. If he doesn't think it is important he may find out it is when you leave and he has no-one to do emotions for him. The more important reason for asking that kind of question is to see whether he is going to actually change anything about the relationship.

Hope this is helpful, a large part is projection! I am working through some issues myself ATM and they are all tied up with this kind of behaviour - I seem to do total hysterical over emotion and total lack of emotion at the same time and my DH is not an emotional type.