Access at Christmas

[deste]

Hi I know if anyone can help its Mumsnet. DD's friend and her two and a half year old son are coming to us for Christmas. 9 hour train journey but she was very excited at having a proper family Christmas. She is a single parent having split from controlling bulling partner. He pays no maintenance and has only ever had him overnight occationally when it suits him. He had him one day this week and texted her in the middle of the night because their son was not well and he could not get any sleep. He returned him very early in the morning so he could go back to bed. He will say he is having him and then will change his mind last minute. She has no family support and would like him to take him at weekends so she can have a break. She does work and is also doing a colege course. She told him they were coming to Scotland for Christmas and he has now said he wants him at Christmas. Her worry is he will get fed up of him and she will be so far away to do anything. She thinks because she had her DS for Christmas last year that he can insist he has him this year. Does he have the right to expect that, so what normally happens if he pays no maintenance. Does he have the right to tell her what is happening? She is scared of him.

deste,
this is a horrid situation of course. Is there any sort of court ruling in place?

If not, then she can I think refuse access, and the father will have to take it to court in order to get what he wants.

However it sounds like he's trying to save face. Can they make some sort of compromise - say, he has the child for part of the holiday and she comes up to you for the other part?

She will do best to try to be fair and reasonable and keep a diary of all this.

I'm sorry, I don't have much experience but didn't want you to go unanswered.

I agree not a wise idea to leave the child in his care, he sounds useless for want of a better word.

I mean while she is miles away.

TBH I would be a bit naughty in this situation and say yes and then still go away with child and send him a text to say that she's changed her mind and decided to go away after all.

There is no regular contact in place, he is unreliable etc so I would put my son having a great christmas as the priority. If he's not happy let him take her to court and get fixed contact.

Would that go against her though Cargirl? Evoking his wrath might not make for a relaxing Christmas

I do favour the 'enough rope' concept though, in that she could agree and say 'yes, sure, I might be away for 5 or 6 days, you're welcome to have him' and wait for him to drop the idea like a hot brick - which he will, unless he has willing family members who are pushing him to get access to the child.

What a horrible situation maybe your last post has the best idea ie let him think he changed his mind.

The legal situation is that he would have to go to a court and obtain an order if she refused to let him have him but as you say softly softly catch monkey would deliver a more peaceful Xmas

Good Luck

It'll be a very relaxing Christmas if she turns her phone off while she is in Scotland.

the problem is that she is being abused by a controlling individual. It's very hard to do but she has to take some of the control back and just go to Scotland and turn her phone off.

And get the Csa involved to get proper maintenance.

And I strongly doubt he'd get an order in place before Christmas.

Tell her to save all her text messages and details of when he cancelled and returned him early. She might need it.

A Christmas with a dad who seems to not really care versus a lovely family Christmas in Scotland with people who will be thrilled to welcome him? Hmmm. Tough one.

I think your DD's friend should just say no this time. It would be different if she had no specific plans in mind and could pick up her DS whenever she liked (ie when the dad inevitably got bored).

He doesn't have the right to demand the child be with him over Christmas if there is no court order in place. Courts will keep maintenance seperate from contact so that likely won't have an effect on anything relevant here.

The thing is, if she turns off her phone he'll get even crosser and it'll up the game.

She won't be able to relax because she will be afraid of the doubtless hostile reaction when she returns.

The only real option IMO is to let him think he is in control, while secretly she is. So agreeing that he has the boy but saying it will be for a whole week - or possibly two - will make him think twice about whether he really can be arsed, which honestly, he really doesn't sound like he can.

Then he will probably say no thanks.

Thankyou, lots to think about, my DD has said a lot of the things being said above. She would have had abusive texts by now, (today), but she has not had any yet so we are hoping he realises he wont keep him for 5 days and that he really cant be bothered. I told my DD that she should go to the CSA but she is too scared to upset him.

I never had a penny for my child, because it wasn't worth the aggro. Sometimes in the scheme of things it just ain't worth it.

I'd focus more on the contact issues (or lack of) and actually, whether it's wise to invite any contact from this bloke.

if it were me I'd far rather do the work myself and have him out of my life and my child's life but I realise that's not a popular view.

It's whether it's worth taking his nonsense, in return for a few hours' break.

I mean, surely it isn't such a great thing for the child to grow up seeing his dad be this horrible to his mum, and seeing his mum scared all the time.

Good luck, hope she manages to work something out x

Thankyou I think we will have to work out a way to make it seem like too much hard work for him.

I also agree that it is best to 'play nice' and be on his side....in so far as if she flat out says no then it will cause a rucus and being that she had Xmas last year puts her in a bad position. However there are still a few weeks until Xmas...could she not say something long the lines of 'ok but I will be gone several days, lets settle DS with you for some ENTIRE weekends so she gets used to the longer periods away from me and with you'...Hopefully he will then see that how much work it is and realise he is not up to it. OR he will rise to it and that has to be a good thing also right?

I think that your daughter's friend is possibly making a mistake by rushing to collect DD whenever he clicks his fingers, it is not reasonable to text her in the middle of the night just because the child won't settle and then return him early. By allowing this she is sending out the message it's fine for him to just do the odd 'fun' bit with his son, and the minute the going gets tough he can rely on her to come running to take on the more difficult parts.

I do think form the sounds of it that it would be a nicer and more fun Xmas for the child if he were with his mum, who is his stability over this period, but I think you might have to try a little subtle manipluation here as if the father is a bully, out right confrontation might not work.

Of course she could well just take the son anyway if there are no access arrangements in place and she has main custody. Depends if she wants a fight on her hands or not.

Good luck. :-)

Sorry I got confused. We are talkikng of your daughters friend and her son right?

Apologies for the typos with DD instead of DS. :-)

I would ask him to collect the ds a couple of days before she itends to travel so when he's had enough she won't have even set off!

That's what I mean about agreeing to him having the ds but still intend to go, there is always method in the madness. As a last resort if he doesn't drop the request just text to say you've changed your mind and go anyway.

I think with this kind of ex at somepoint there is going to be a horrendous show down/going to court etc etc In the longer term ending up in court and him having fixed contact is actually a good thing as the rest of the week you are free from hassle - and often they don't turn up anyway!

No it is my DD's friend. Sorry if I have confused anyone. My DD is here already and will be for a few weeks.

Generally I favour fathers having equal acces to their kids but in this case I'd say no, and give him not coping with overnights as an example.
The needs of the child come first. I'd suggest he has his son for weekends and then has him next xmas if all goes well.
He doesn't have the right to tell her what is happening. She can just say no here. As he isn't paying child support he can't use that as a lever so that makes things easier for her. A court wouldn't support him when he can't cope with overnights yet.

I think she would be better to say no now.That's right, he doesn't have the right to tell her what is happening. If she tries to trick him by saying yes but it is for a week, then says she has changed her mind if he calls her bluff, he can use it as a stick to beat her with. And he can use it again and again. If she's already tried to trick him, and he has called her bluff, the only thing she can do is say she's changed her mind, in the best interests of the child.

And he will find some excuse to be nasty csa or not. So straight after Christmas, contact the csa. (no point doing it before,giving him an excuse to bully further when there is already a problem of Christmas to deal with)

But the mother has to follow her instinct as to what to do.

"he ahs only ahd him occasioanly"
2 he could not cope when Ds was sick"

so that is good enough reason to say "no i am tkaing him to scotland with me for five days. you can have him for new year" or whatever.
if tehre is no court order she does not have to give him over for xmas.

she is far too worried about his wrath, his reaction - it i not her problem - his wrath is his problem.
in teh absence of court order she does not ahve to give him for contact - she eneds to docuemtn adn record all bullying text msgs etc adn build a case for solciitor in new eayr why this man cant ahve contact with HER - and why contact with his son needs to be arranged thru third party.

she si jumping when he calls etc.
she needs to leave him with the dad and elav him to it.

but as otehrs said - wanting that break - sometimes it isnt worth it.

tempting as it is to handdnover DS to dad -(and yes dad should be competentand capable) when the dad in question isnt up to it - then she has to start thinking other alternatives or jsut suck it up til child is older and can go on sleepovers with friends etc.

Just because he is a prat and totally unreliable, I dont think she should play games by tricking the ex in any way or turning her phone off. It would just cause big problems in the longer term, especially if he is volatile.

A straightforward 'I understand you would have liked to have x over Christmas, but as you know, we have already made other arrangements' text would be better. Then just leave it.

The bit that really bothers me is 'she is scared of him'. No matter how tired she is (been there myself, did the whole thing alone so completely understand the attraction of a weekend off) the welfare of the little boy is paramount. If the Mum is scared, then access (or not) needs to be talked through very carefully with a solicitor.

I've very pro Dads seeing their children as much as possible, but the Mum is clearly scared for a reason.