No contact with family - what to do re Xmas?

[toadinabathingsuit]

My childhood was marred by my parents' verbal, emotional and physical abuse towards each other and their 4 children. I have been no contact with all (except one sister) for between 3 years and 12 months.

I have been no contact with my older sister for about 18 months. She is narcissistic and a carbon copy of my mother. She is the golden child in our family dynamic. I feel like I've spent my whole life being compared (unfavourably) to her and treading on egg-shells so as not to offend her. I think she is as much a victim of our upbringing as my other siblings and me, but it's just easier for me to have nothing to do with her, she brings me down so much and can never see anything from anyone else's point of view.

She does, however, have 3 DDs, and I had a reasonably close relationship to the 2 elder before I stopped seeing sister and her family. Last year, I sent the children presents for birthdays and Xmas as usual, albeit I felt a bit odd doing this. I felt like I was going behind my sister's back and being a hypocrite. My husband persuaded me in the end that it was the right thing to do, that the children were not to blame for my sister's and my "battle"; which is fair enough, but I find it really irritating that I want no contact with my family yet they feel it's ok to have contact with my children via present giving. Mine are both under 3 and have no pre-existing emotional relationship, and barely any physical contact, with my family, so I find the contact annoying.However, I had a relationship with my 2 elder nieces, it's not like they've forgotten me, nor I them. But is it hypocritical to send them presents if I'm not in contact with my sister? Is it cruel to bring them into this (will they feel left out, punished when they've done nothing wrong, hurt?) or hypocritical to want a relationship with them (albeit an extremely limited one based on present giving)?

By way of info, I get on well with my other sister and will be giving her DSs presents. I should also add that toxic sister gave my DD nothing for Xmas last year but did give her a birthday present and sent a gift when my DS was born.

Anyone have any thoughts/ideas/experience they can share? Sorry if this sounds bonkers and petty. Sometimes, it was the drip, drip, drip of petty stuff that made my own upbringing so horrible and I don't want to be the instrument of passing that on to this generation, iyswim. Thanks.

I take it that last Xmas was your first "no contact" one? So your sister didn't know what the form would be - whether to send presents for children etc.
I'm not sure that you really are in a no contact situation. I think you are in a no direct contact situation. I'm sure you know if something significant happens to your sister, good or bad, and vice versa. Are you happy with this? Did you originally want it to be absolute? Do YOU think its cruel to involve the children? Or is it kinder in the long run. It's your relationship with your sister so you shouldn't bow down to anyone else's feelings on the subject.
FWIW, I have lots of sisters and there are lots of rows. One is a real mixer, another is a control freak. Another a total drama queen. I once had a no direct contact with one of them for 3 years. And with another for about 7 months. The other I continue to squabble with on an almost daily basis. But we're all talking at the moment.

However, perhaps the difference here is that I have absolutely no doubt that my sisters love me, and I know if I rang at 3am and just said 'come here now' they would - en masse.

springlamb, yes last year was the first no contact Xmas. To be fair, neither of us really knew what the form was, we had had a huge row earlier that year. It's only really this year that I've come to terms with the childhood stuff and decided I need to keep my distance if I am going to sort this stuff out in my head. I've never formally said to her or any of the others that I no longer want contact with them, I've just stopped contacting them and they've not really tried to contact me. I do hear news about all of them via my other sister, but I don't ask for it.

I really don't know whether it's cruel or kind re the nieces. In some ways it feels like pointless contact, sending presents to people you hardly know anymore (the girls will have changed a lot in the 2+ years since I last saw them). Part of me wants them to know there is someone out there for them if they need to get away from their mother - we had nowhere to turn as kids, no extended family - but just thinking that sounds patronising/duplicitous, like I'm trying to drive a wedge between her and her children. I think the bottom line is that she reminds me so much of our mother and I can see myself in her daughters and I don't want them to feel as lonely/helpless as I did.

I don't have the type of relationship with my family you describe. I would never call on them for help, and I've had some pretty horrible stuff happen to me. They would not help me, somehow, whatever happened to me, it would be turned back on me as my fault.

1.) This and you are not bonkers or petty.

2.)Hypocritical?...imho, no, because I choose to respect children as separate human beings with their own brains and identity. (Imho again...)Your nieces are not appendages of the 'entitled' one no matter what their age, whether she thinks so or not.

3.)Define the relationship...(you may need to write it down and post it on the inside of your cabinet to remind yourself to focus)... for example, it sounds to me that you would be on the periphery of your nieces' extended family. You send gifts and that is pretty much it-without expecting anything in return. They can look forward to the packages and you can deliver that happy spark for them on occasion.

4.) Imho, you are able to send whatever you want. But if your nieces' parents give you a boundary, such as a price limit, or (my favorite:) nothing with a heartbeat, then graciously respect that.

Sorry for the bullet point response.
I was going to answer without reading your post with just

You will finally have fun, duh.
Good for you for figuring them all out.
I hope you will be able to laugh through the entire holiday season. Merry Christmas.

x post, Toad.
That is sad about your family.
No I don't think you can be accused of having a hidden agenda if all you do is send a token or a bit of money for their purse. If you contacted them for detox debriefing sessions about their mom then that would be viewed as you say-driving a wedge.

My sister actually told my teendd -when I was pg a couple of years ago-that if my dd ever found herself with an unwanted pregnancy, that she (dd) was to come to her first. That was the tipping point for me to severely reduce contact-just bdays and Christmas and those are now just gift cards.

It is actually very kind and mature and wise to stay in the background for them because one day they very well may need you to fill the role of an enlightened witness-that you will be able to validate and clarify their experience so that they may recover from it.

I don't think it is presumptuous to believe that your sister won't change. Did your Mom? Did my Mom? for the worse...my sister? no, and neeevveeer will.

TMSB, thank you and don't apologise, I love bullet points! I think you are right, our children aren't little annexes of ourselves. Saying that, I guess it would be entirely my sister's right as their mum to ask me not to contact them. She hasn't done this.

Wry at "toxic debriefing sessions" will have to remember that phrase. There is no way I would criticise my sister to my nieces or try to brief them on the fucked up dynamics of our family. I would be honest with them if they ever asked me what happened. I do worry that my non contact may have made my sister worse in her behaviour and that she may have taken this out on the nieces (that's the family way, I'm afraid).

Neither of my parents have changed, just become less powerful and more pathetic as I've grown older and independent. My sister had so much potential. I feel sorry for her but angry too. I don't know if she can change. If she can't then maybe I can't, I feel like I'm spiralling down the narc/abuser way sometimes.

It sounds like your sister tried to undermine you when you were vulnerable. I'm sorry that happened to you, it was unforgivable. You sound very strong though, I admire that you are able to keep up contact, even limited contact. I'm so black and white about this stuff.

AM92 thanks for sharing your experience. I share that sadness about family around special occasions and holidays, although before it was all about being with them and feeling sad that it was not right. When we were children, it was my brother and me who tried to make it festive, saving up for decorations etc and doing the tree. My mother always made xmas day a nightmare, she's kick off at my dad every year without fail just before dinner. I always thought/hoped things would get better as we got older/produced grandchildren/proved we weren't useless, but they did not.

Re using my other sister for contact; I did use her a bit when I first went no contact. However, I think that might be a form of triangulation, and she gets enough heaped on her shoulders as it is. She sometimes imparts bits of information to me, but I don't try to send messages via her anymore.

AM2, my other sister has challenged my toxic sister a couple of times re her treatment of my nieces. This has led to a rift between them, although they speak a bit, they continue to have a strained relationship. Toxic sister already thinks other sister and me are in some sort of gang against her, so contact with the nieces this way is not really an option.

Sorry, AM92, I'd misunderstood your question. My nieces are probably a bit closer to my other nice sister and good friends with her DSs, who are of similar age. So yes, they have positive influences, there. Plus they have their dad (who I believe is a good man) and extended family on his side. So they are not alone, like we were, stuck with just the parents and each other and no-one else. having said that, toxic sis seems to hate her DH's family, so goodness knows how much of a relationship is there now. I am perhaps projecting a sense of isolation onto my nieces they don't actually experience.

I have bought some lovely books and bits for my nieces that I've seen this last year and thought they'd like. I will send them with some news of my little ones and nothing controversial.

Thanks for your advice and support, everyone who posted.

MDS thanks for your post. One of the things I worry about is my own DCs hating me for depriving them of their extended family on my side, even though I think I'm a better mother to them without my family's malign influence on me. So, at the very least, keeping my DCs in touch with their cousins feels like the right thing to do.