how to help my friend with her marriage

[anyabanya]

I am at my wit's end trying to help a friend, and want to throw the issue out there for the collective wisdom of MN. I feel quite comfortable putting it on the interweb as I can guarantee my friend has never even heard of MN, living in a different country 'n all.

anyway. I'll try and keep it brief.

She has been married nearly 20 years. First boyfriend. She suffers from low self esteem and never thought anyone would marry her so thought of him as a bit of a saviour I think.

They have never had sex. That is right. They have NEVER had a physical relationship. OInce they were married, they tried a couple of times, and it did not work, and then he showed no interest.

They have nothing in common. She says they 'hate' each other. She wants to leave, but seems unable to. This is quite in keeping with her... she is the most indecisive person i have ever met. You cannot even get her to decide what meal she wants to eat, or what movie she wants to see. Drives me bananas. She quite simply cannot work out if she should leave him or not. She says that she loves her nieces and nephews and does not want to lose her relationship to them. She hates her husband. They take holidays separately. They do not go to each others families for Christmas or any other celebrations. They live completely separate lives. She has been miserable for 20 years. She says she is afraid that by leaving him it means she has failed and she is a loser. i have talked until i am breathless saying that there is no shame in things not working out, it happens sometimes. I have also pointed out that we were having this conversation 18 years ago, 15 years ago, 10 years ago and last week. Does she REALLY want to be having the same conversation in 10 years time? I have suggested that she has a trial separation, and she says that her husband tells her that 'if you go, you go there is no coming back' so it would be a total break. So she cannot do that.

I just do not know what to do. I asked her what she would think if HE left, she said he would not, because he is happy. She cooks and clean,s she paid off their mortgage as he was unemployed for 5 years or so, and he sees nothing wrong with their relationship. (Personally, I think he is hiding behind the marriage somehow). The situation suits him somehow.

I want to shake her. I am at a loss what to suggest next.

I have just gotten off skype with her, and simply cannot think of anything new to suggest or help her with.

Basically it isn't something you have the power to change.

You can stop listening, or make it clear you don't think it's a great way to live but in the end it's up to them and perhaps they are both happy on some level.

Having someone 'there' even if you actively dislike them can be an absolute lifeline.

My partner isn't even there most of the time, yet knowing I have him in my head, in my world, and that he thinks about me as well is enough - I don't want to be married, or do things with someone very much, even the sex I can take or leave often. (though it is very good when it happens)

People have very diverse needs and what she wants may not be what you want, iyswim - I don't doubt you mean very well, but if she is really upsetting you you probably need to step back a bit, because it's her life and you can't really change her x

Even if she does really want out, she will need to reach tipping point - and it sounds like you've made it very clear you'll support her if that's what she decides.

You are not the factor stopping her leaving him - something else is, and it's beyond your power to alter it. Hope that makes sense. You do sound like a nice friend.

Thanks, Frright. I feel at a loss. She has asked me to 'kick her into shape' but I did say it has to be her decision, and i guess there is a bit of me that thinks it simply MUST satisfy her in some way, because otherwise she would have left.

It is just everything i suggest she vetoes as being impossible. I was on the verge of saying to her that I was not going to have the same conversation again as it was tiring me out, but that would hurt her badly.

I was thinking of maybe e-mailing her and saying that she needs to either stay,. or go, but she has to own the decision and take the consequences. But that sounds so harsh, and i do not want to be harsh. I have suggested she gets counselling from someone who is objective though, but she says it is an admision of failure.

I am knackered with it really. :(

Thanks for your reply. :)

TBH, if she really has been miserable for 20yrs & just accepted it, then that´s what I would call failure!

In that case she is pretty much using you - and it isn't fair on you.

You've had enough so just totally avoid the topic - and if she won't avoid it, avoid her.

Make gentle excuses - no need to be harsh - and say it is upsetting you as you don't like to see her unhappy but at the same time, you are not able to 'kick her into shape' because at the end of the day it's her life, not yours - and you have your own issues.

I'd just meet every opening into the subject with 'I don't know, really' and refuse to offer any opinion at all. She might get fed up with asking. Change the subject, be silent, don't have any preferences yourself - I had a friend who always tried to make me see her point of view on my relationship, and while she was very sweet and supportive, and I was genuinely in a quandary, she seemed to have a lot invested in it. She would ring up to ask me whatw was happening and said she was losing sleep over it...I had to explain that it was my problem, really.
It was the opposite to your situation, and I don't think you are like her. But it sounds like your friend is almost playing you off - all the time you are saying how crap her relationship is, she doesn't have to act on it because someone else is getting worked up for her.

If you stop being bothered at all by it maybe she will accept the responsibility is hers...iyswim?

anya, you have tried to be a good friend to someone who, if I'm entirely honest, hasn't been a good friend to you. I'm not surprised you're exhausted. 20 years of supporting her in a marriage that appears not to suit her but she won't leave? Enough already.

It actually doesn't sound that bad an arrangement if they just do their own things, except for the bit where it seems she does all the cooking and cleaning? Her choice though - she could simply stop doing that if she wanted.

Think about yourself for a minute. It sounds very draining to be trying to help her. I honestly think you are better off disconnecting, in a nice way, i.e.: I feel sorry for your situation but I have tried everything I can think of to help. I understand how hard it can be, particularly in such an entrenched situation, to accept help but I honestly can't keep talking about it any more. I will always be there when you need practical support to change but I just cannot keep talking over the same issues, it upsets me on your behalf. I can't fix your life, only you can do that. I hope you will.

what diddl said.

your "friend" is emotionally tormenting you with her situation. Wtf, she is laying the responsibility for her happiness and her future on you! She is not very kind

Oh. I am having a lightbulb moment actually, based on what you say.

You are right, she is dumping on me. She keeps saying to me 'I need you to tell me what to do' Or 'I need you to tell me to leave'. i do keep saying I cannot make the decision for her. But it IS exhausting. She wants to abdicate her responsibility for it.

SShe did say that if her Dh left HER, she would feel relieved as then it would not be her fault. I had not thought through actually what she is really saying i guess. She wants to give up control of her own life, so that she can blame if it all goes wrong.

i was on skype from 2 am with her ffs until dawn, having the same old same old conversation. I told her i was very very tired. I think you are all right.... I am absorbing too much of her issues when she unloads. (Although I am so flipping tired I may not be thinking straight now.... need a nap.) She gets passive aggressive too. She got a bit snarly about my 'perfect little life'. I have a great life... newborn, a wonderful DH, but we have our issues too. everyone does.

Step away from the situation Anya.

Thanks everyone. You have helped ME. :)

I think go have a nap, anya, take care of yourself and then see how you feel. You seem to have tried very hard to help this friend, which is a testimony to you. But you have the classic 'lead a horse to water but can't make her drink' situation.

If I'm completely honest, I find the idea of someone keeping someone with a newborn up when precious sleeping hours were available pretty atrocious. (Of course if she's never had children she might simply not realise that). Certainly nothing of what you've written so far suggests an emergency situation.

Sleep well!

That's outrageou...we are so vulnerable with a newborn baby, you've got to begin saying no, and putting you and baby first.

I have seen a lot of new mums in a similar situation, giving loads to someone 'needy' when they themselves are possibly in the most needful situation of their lives.

It's a phenomenon, not sure why it happens - but you have no responsibility to her at all, and you wouldn't dream of treating her like this if she just had had a baby

Blow her off!

anyabanya - Google the phrase below. It might be of some help. When I read what your friend was doing, this is what sprang to mind immediately:

"Transactional Analysis + Why Don't You, Yes But"

Here's a Wikipedia entry for it:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transactional_analysis#Why_Don.27t_You.2FYes_But

Conflugen..... thanks for that. I clicked your link and found that it sounds VERY familiar indeed.

I am definitely stepping away from it.

Practice my shrugs and non comittal responses.

The good thing is that we live in different countries and she does not travel. So, I can avoid e-mails and have put my skype on invisible. For a while anyway. :)

Thank you everyone.very much indeed.

Sympathys , ive had a freind like this for over a decade and its only these last few months ive cottoned on. Like your freind , she was in an unhappy marriage and would act in a similar manner to your freind . Conversations were mainly complaints about her husband and although she enquired about my life it was fake courtesy really.

She would ring me at all hours to complain and whinge about the latest installments , i often felt guilty for not answering my phone but some days i couldnt face it.

Freind is now divorced , but guess what , she got a new man to whinge about , then another , then another , then it was problems with her mother , or freind , moan moan moan. There is always someone in her life ( completeley by choice ) who causes her some sort of distress . I can only assume this serves some sort of purpose for her . Anyway , its not nice , i find it manipulative and i refuse to listen anymore , i am out , just going out , too busy , or if i have to i simply keep quiet after shes told me how someones treated her in an outrageous way .