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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Pay per view kids

5 replies

OptimistS · 25/10/2010 21:05

Have read a few threads on here about post-separation contact/maintenance issues, where most posters argue that children are not 'pay per view' and that maintenance and contact are entirely separate issues. The premise behind this is that contact is about the child's right to a relationship with the non-resident parent (NRP) rather than the parent's right to a relationship with a child.

In previous posts, I have almost always taken this view myself (except in cases of abuse). However, I have been thinking and wondering about this and find that I am now questioning it.

There are always going to be exceptions where a NRP genuinely cannot pay, but if he (I am not going to type out 'he or she' every time, and mostly NRP's are male) can pay and doesn't, does his child really benefit from exercising the right to have a relationship with him?

Anecdotally, examine the cases you know of personally. If I do this, I find that the NRPs who pay maintenance without begrudging it are the ones who remain involved in their child's life and put their child's interests before their own.

Many NRPs fall into the category where they feel very hard hit by CSA maintenance payments, especially if they have subsequent children as well, but at the same time they recognise that they have responsibilities to their child. These are also usually decent parents.

Then there are those who are paying maintenance because they cannot dodge the CSA and they take every opportunity to bemoan it. Worse still are those who pay nothing at all despite no good reason not to (I'm thinking particularly of the self-employed who 'fix' the books and a certain group of feckless parents who will deliberately remain unemployed or working cash in hand to avoid having to pay maintenance). These types usually claim they are experiencing hardship, but they often seem to having the money to afford regular outings, new clothes, etc. (often while their kids go without).

In my experience, there is a strong correlation between the non-payers and those NRPs who are very cavalier with contact, often letting down their child at the last moment, and often not doing anything child-centred with their child even when they do turn up. Contact with a parent like this can result in a childhood characterised by disappointment, hurt and insecurity, along with the self-esteem issues that tend to accompany these.

Most of us assume that there will be massive rejection issues as a result of being 'abandoned' by the NRP. However, we also hear stories of children who have never known their other parent but despite curiosity about their heritage, say that it has never affected them negatively. The overriding factor seems to be the quality of the relationship with the resident parent (and money).

So, if we take out genuine cases where there is no ability to pay, is it really true that contact and maintenance should not be linked? Maybe willingness to pay is indeed a good indication of how 'fit' the NRP is to be a figure in a child's life.

On the other hand, of course, we would have to balance this as choosing to absent yourself from your child's life should not be seen as a ticket for non-payment, nor should payment be seen by an abusive NRP as bestowing a automatic right to see the child.

IMO we have it the wrong way round in this country. The courts tend to take the view that contact with NRPs is the default position and can be legally forced, and yet 3 out of 5 NRP's (yes, that's more than half) pay no maintenance with very little consequence. Shouldn't it be the other way round - where payment of maintenance is the default (enforced) position and contact a privilege that has to be earned?

This is a purely philosophical argument by the way. I have no particular case in mind as I write this, just a general musing. Obviously, nothing approaching it would ever come to pass in law as there are just too many variables and assumptions going on and it would be open to an awful lot of abuse, but I am curious what others think.

OP posts:
houseproject · 25/10/2010 21:48

Interesting post - however, in my experience, I think the correlation between lack of contact and non payment is too simple. Often lack of contact & lack of child maintenance are symptoms of the issues from the relationship breakdown and subsequent poor parental relationship. What often seems to happen is that parents post split have such hostility that they can't bear to have anything to do with each other. They would wish each other away for the future. It's a sad fact that at some stage a child was created but somehow the relationship dissolved into such a place that civil communciation isn't possible.I'm not naive to think that all mums and dads are saints but I would argue that there is an equal share of poor mothers & fathers. I wonder about the child maintenance figures and don't know if clean break type agreements (which were commonplace) are taken into account.
Just for background - I'm a mum who doesn't receive formal child maintenance however I accept that the dad also has signifcant costs involved in seeing our child. He needs to provide for her when he sees her, have a bedroom, feed her etc and my 'unique' costs are school activities, school dinners, school uniforms, shoes, mobile phone. We've found a way to balance these and it works for us. I know I'm a good mum but I also know that his input in her life (which is very different to mine) is also valuable. Men will provide a child with a greater levels of independence..if it were up to me I would have her wrapped in cotton wool. I'm not saying it's easy to make it work but I think that somehow throughout our separation we didn't lose basic respect for each other. I also highly value that I am the resident parent - that is worth ££££ per month to me so I don't feel that I need to to receive extra to have her with me. It is a joy and I'm so grateful for that.

perfumedlife · 25/10/2010 22:32

I know what you mean. My sister had a child with her bf then found him having sex with her best friend while she breast fed the baby upstairs. They split up and he never, ever maintaned contact. No money and no effort to see his son. Sister tried everything to get him to see his son, she was resigned about the maintenance. He has never seen his son since leaving 17 years ao, or paid a penny.

Then there is my dh who divorced his first wife ten years ago and pays a very large amount of maintenance every month that sadly, my ss does not see. Long story. But we have not seen ss for almost three years, and thats all thanks to the ex wife being an utter cow, in and out of jail, with different men and having lost custody of three other kids.

What that tells me is that, although the current system is far from perfect, there are lots of fathers who pay, and are desperate to see their kids and are prevented from doing so. Often its because the ex wants control over what the father does with the child at their contact time. Or money. Or just bloody mindedness.

In our case, your proposed change would help enormously. We pay, always have, and yet are at the mercy of the ex wife's whims. But there still seems something distasteful about the pay per view connotation.

ivykaty44 · 25/10/2010 22:41

Interesting post, in my experiance the NRP who doesn't pay maintence is also inconsistent with contact and making him/her pay would not solve the issue but be the excuse of the issue in asmuch that not being able to pay was the reason I couldn't see you my son all those years ago

the fathers that pay for the upkeep of their chidlren ar ethe same fathers that want to stay in contact and have a relationship

Unfortunately my dd2 has at one stage stopped contact altogether and then wanted it started up again and then went every other weekend. Now it is at everyother weekend but never ever overnight - she refused point blank as they smoke in the house. I am not going to force a 13 year old dd to spend more time when to her a couple of hours on a Sunday afternoon is what she is happy with.

i know that this is "all my fault" but I encourage my dd2 to keep a good quality time with her dad rather than cutting all contact as she didn't want to go all weekend

I still have to feed and clothe and put a roo over dc's heads - shoudlk the maintencen by guided by dd2 not wanting to spend so much time with her father?

perfumedlife · 25/10/2010 22:46

Thats a good point ivykaty. Lots of kids dont want to spend much time visiting the NRP as they get older. They want to hang out with friends who live nearer the main home, they have little in common with the NRP new partner or any other amount of reasons. And that should not affect maintenance. That is an unchanging obligation and should be.

I fear its one of those situations that cant really be legislated for.

OptimistS · 25/10/2010 23:18

Interesting responses. Thanks for posting. I nearly posted this in lone parents but I wanted to get a more balanced view, from those in relationships as well as those who are personally involved. I know from personal experience that the way a lone parent feels about maintenance and contact can be very different once the aftermath has passed. I think houseproject is spot on with the comment: "Often lack of contact & lack of child maintenance are symptoms of the issues from the relationship breakdown and subsequent poor parental relationship." I disagree with "men will provide more independence" though I'm afraid ? I passionately believe that good parenting (of which, independence is the natural end result) is gender neutral, but that's another thread. Wink

perfumedlife I'm really sorry to hear about your DH's XW and your SS. That's really horrible. Sad I've only ever experienced NRPs being the ones who let down their children (I hasten to add that I know a lot of good ones, too, before you all think I'm a terrible judge of character and surround myself with losers Grin). As a parent, I cannot imagine doing anything so damaging towards my child and most parents I know have gone the other way and tolerated some quite terrible behaviour because they don't want to deprive the child of a relationship with the other parent. It's an unpleasant feeling to realise that the parent entrusted with the daily welfare of a child is so hostile that they will deprive that child of maintenance and much-needed contact with the other parent. I feel for you and particularly your poor DH.

ivykaty I tried to say in my OP (somewhat waffly) that maintenance should be mandatory regardless of contact, but that unwillingness to pay for it should perhaps be seen as an indication that contact would not necessarily be in the best interest of the child. perfumedlife is right about kids losing interest in contact as they get older, usually about the teen years, but again, personal observation has demonstrated to me that the NRP who has really tried to maintain a healthy, interested relationship will reap the rewards of this and that closer contact will resume as the teenager becomes an adult (emotionally, if not in terms of time spent together). When the relationship drifts irrevocably in teenagehood perhaps it is because the NRP has been so unengaged that there is no point of reference there for the child and she/he outgrows the uninterested adult?

Anyway, I'll stop going on and on and just read the replies now. Thanks again for all the responses. Smile

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