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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Online (and offline) cheating

25 replies

Bloomintroll · 18/10/2010 15:47

Does anyone have any wise or hopeful words to share with me? To cut a long story short, I've caught my DH using sex chat rooms. He's done this before and also went further and met up with some of his online contacts for sex. I found out, was devastated, we went through counselling and I thought it was behind us. I've now found him going on line again. I think it's a compulsive addictive kind of behaviour. Has anyone been through this and seen a genuine recovery? Or should I cut my losses now (after over 20 years and 2 kids?)

OP posts:
SolidButShamblingUndeadBrass · 18/10/2010 15:55

Whether it's compulsive, or whether he just likes doing it is not really relevant. He's not going to stop by the sound of it.
Is it possible, though, that he thinks it;s only meeting that's unacceptable and believes that sex chat rooms are no different from looking at porn (bearing in mind that sex chat on line may be with a hairy trucker rather than a nubile horny housewife or whatever).

JaquiChan · 18/10/2010 16:05

He has done this to you twice now, going so far as meeting up for sex. These are the two instances that you know of....do you really think he deserves another chance?

WhenwillIfeelnormal · 18/10/2010 16:08

I don't think he's going to stop either. You know, this is just like a second discovered infidelity. He saw the pain it caused you last time and this makes the recent discovery all the more agonising. For most intrinsically decent people, who are forced to see the pain caused by their own hands, they would never inflict it again, because it would mean they have absolutely no respect for their partner's feelings.

So, if he's not going to stop and you have simply managed to interrupt this before he went on to meet someone (that taboo has gone, after all) then all you can do is control what you do as a result.

GypsyMoth · 18/10/2010 16:08

you discovered it...what did it say? was he saying he would meet up etc?

how did you find this?

Bloomintroll · 19/10/2010 14:39

Got interrupted yesterday, so wasn't able to elaborate.
I do think it's a kind of compulsive behaviour. At least, it has the signs of that: self-deception, shame, an addiction to the thrill, escalating behaviour, taking stupid risks, disassociation etc etc.

I don't think it is easy to stop this pattern of behaviour without external help. Has anyone been down this route and can they share with me their experience?

OP posts:
StudiousSal · 19/10/2010 15:04

I went down this route with my EX, we had councelling also he had it on his own, promised me he would stop etc, etc, but I'm afraid he couldn't he was addicted, and in the end I was not going to play second best to one night stands, and easy women, he loved the chase and being the centre of attention, and in the end, he admitted it was too easy, and why should he stop, he could get all he needed off the internet.

Bloomintroll · 19/10/2010 17:19

Thanks SS. WAs it specific counselling for internet sex or was it more general?

OP posts:
Bloomintroll · 20/10/2010 17:25

I have at last got some time on my own to be able to set out the whole story, or at least most of it. I'm sure I'm not the first person on here who has come up against this issue and I would be so, so grateful for any wisdom.

I disovered 3 years ago that DH had been seeking out online chat rooms and meeting up with other women for casual sex. I found this out when he accidentally left open a email in which he was corresponding with some guy about looking for suitable sex clubs he could visit with his 'girlfriend'. I felt physically sick with shock. I had absolutley no idea about this part of his life and found it incredibly hard to reconcile with my experience of the person I've known for over 20 years. I confronted him, he denied it (not knowing how much evidence I had), then he had to admit it. I asked him to leave me a few days on my own with the kids, which he did.

He came back, was abjectly sorry, promised to stop and we went together to Relate. We both really wanted to put things back together and make them work for the sake of our children and our family and what was otherwise a (mostly) very happy marriage. The sessions were quite helpful in some ways, but the focus was all about moving forward and not really how or why we had got into the situation why we needed Relate. I was too scared to really look in detail at what he had done, and he was also -not surprisingly- happier to look forward rather than to have a good look at what he had done. He wasn't really able to explain WHY and maybe I was too scared to face the possibility that it was because of my inadequacies.

One big issue is that sex has always been a sticking point between us. I've always felt very inhibited and inadequate about sex and very anxious about it. We both found id really hard to talk about sex and to communicate openly. He said that my lack of confidence led to him feeling frustrated and rejected, and this is why he looked elsewhere.

So after the initial 'crisis' counselling , we went on to have sex therapy. This was not really very sucessful, partly because we didn't think that much of the therapist and partly because we didn't feel we addressed what we thought were the 'real' issues. The result was that I felt the therapy didn't 'work' and that I was even more of a sexual failure. I felt pretty depressed and our sex life remained as it had before; not brilliant.

Fast forward 3 years, and I've just caught him going back on the internet sex chat rooms. This is after what I thought was a clear and categorical ultimatum last time. This time I walked out for a couple of days and for the first time I opened up to a friend as I'd previously only spoken to the 2 counsellors. Hearing myself articulate the whole story to someone else made me see things differently, and realise that it wasn't my fault and also that he was responsible for his own actions.

Since then we've done a lot of talking. I made him go through the list of all the women he'd met up with and asked for the details of when, where, their names, how many times they met etc. And it was a really sorry and sordid catalogue of quick sex in cars and pub toilets. And when he heard himself listing all of these encounters that he had experienced, I think he was actually more shocked than I was.

The more I think about this and talk to him, the more I think it's a kind of compulsive behaviour. In 'real life' he is generally considered a good guy; he's charming, kind, decent, well-liked, a great dad and an apparently loving and devoted husband. He really is the last person you could imagine doing these things, which is part of the problem. His self-image as a good guy is very important to him, and he always needs people to like and admire him which usually they do. In contrast, his secret life is about risky escapism which both appalls and excites him. And I think he has found over the time he's been doing this that he needs more risk and more 'transgression' to get the same thrill. He's able to compartmentalise this behaviour and separate it from his imagined 'real' self, so he initially tried to explain it as a kind of reaction to stress rather than recognising it as a deliberate selfish and callous choice which he has made, and a choice which involves putting absolutely everything at risk.

Sorry if this is a bit incoherent; I'm just trying to get everything down while I have a few moments. I feel very calm and clear about this whole situation. I don't really want to end the marriage; we have 2 kids who love their dad and in many ways we have what it takes. BUT I know that I can't spend the rest of my life with someone who is fundementally dishonest with both himself and with me.

I've told him he needs to seek help for this compulsion and he accepts this and I think really wants to sort himself out for the sake of all of us. I still think that there is a place for sex therapy for us as a couple further on down the line, but there is a waste of time unless he resolves his own problems first. I have to feel some hope that this is possible.

I already think we have made a lot of progress in the last few days, in that I have forced him to look in detail at his actions and take ownership of them. I have also spoken to my friend and to my mother, so he is no longer able to maintain his self-image of 'niceness' in the face of their knowledge. I really think that going at least semi-public is helpful. My experience of counsellors is that they refuse to use words like 'fault' and 'wrong', and that makes it easier for people to avoid examining and judging their own behaviour.

Has anyone successfully come out the other side? Or has anyone got any useful insights to share? At the moment I'm not ready to end the marriage, though I can quite see why many people would think I was being blind and foolish to stick with this man.

OP posts:
WhenwillIfeelnormal · 22/10/2010 13:11

Bloomingtroll I saw your posts on Pfft's thread and I fear what might have happened with this thread is that you were unlucky enough to update on the same day as a lot of troll threads were started, so it slipped off the page. This is just one of the reasons why trolls are such a PITA. Angry

You might find it helpful to PM a poster called Mrs.Jellicle or do a search for her threads. As I recall, another very brave poster came on at the end of her very long initial thread and gave some wonderful links to therapists who specialise in addictions of this nature.

My own feeling about this is that I have reservations about a therapeutic solution for what I think is a clinical issue, that might benefit more from psychiatry, than counselling. This is for your H.

For you I think a BASRT accredited therapist would be a good move, but if you feel the therapist is making you feel worse, not better OR if you feel that you are being blamed at all, then change therapist immediately.

I think you need a safe space with someone non-judgemental, to process your feelings about this and unravel why you might stay in or why you might leave, the relationship.

I think it's good that you are talking about this to others, as long as that is helping you and supporting you.

I also want to say that quite apart from the addiction theory, which may or may not be true, this still represents your H's willingness to hurt you and deceive you, all over again. I don't want you to lose sight of that, because in the midst of what you might perceive as a bit of a life-raft, framing this as an addiction, you might overlook such an important point.

He saw the hurt last time and did it again.

Bloomintroll · 22/10/2010 14:27

Hi WWIFN. Thanks for advice. I also realised that I have a rather troll-like name as well!

Yes, I did read Mrs J's threads and found them immensely helpful to read of someone else going through such a similar experience. I wil have another look and see if I can find the recommendations.

What's ironic is that one of the few useful things the sex therapy person raised was whether H might be 'addicted' to internet sex. She also recommended the name of somone who does specific work in this area. As I was led to believe that this was not relevant, we didn't explore it any further and I now can't remember it. Ha! The irony!
This is one of the reasons why I am now very very sceptical about counselling, at least couples counselling. It's a total waste of time if either of the individuals is being dishonest and if the counsellor does not get beyond that.

The fact that I'm framing it as an 'addiction' doesn't mean that I'm trying to minimise the responsibility for all of this or treat it as a pathology instead of a moral choice. He's NOT a victim; he chose to do these things and they involved a lot of time and effort. Whatever the impulse, he dediced to indulge it.

I do think though that there are some aspects of this behaviour which are like a compulsion. The behaviour escalated over time and he spent increasing time online, took more risks, sought out increasing levels of transgression. When I found out it was at the point at which he was looking for sex clubs to visit with his latest partner. He also joined a contacts site advertising for men and women to meet for sex in the park. The contrast with his public persona is so extreme that I think there was a real psychological buzz in acting out this fantasy life, and that he found it increasingy hard to resist. It was hugely exciting and also very easy.

OP posts:
ScaryFucker · 22/10/2010 19:37

I am late to this thread, for the reasons WWIFN said, it slipped under the radar

BT...I am completely shocked you are even considering continuing a relationship with this lowlife

I know you won't want to hear this...but please, are you aware how badly he is risking your health ?

Has he had STD checks ? Have you ?

He will never stop. Not ever. No matter how much you want him to, he will not.

This is your second round of discovering just how much he is capable of disrespecting you.

It is escalating...that is abvious and scarily inevitable

What would it actually take for you to call time ? My mind is boggling so bad I can't see straight.

I think you have a stark choice here.

  1. Leave

  2. accept he feels he is entitled to sexual kicks outside of his marriage and the best you could hope for is he stays disease-free and doesn't risk his life (sex in parks? with randoms ? it won't be too long until he picks the "wrong" partner) and that he doesn't bring humiliation to your door in the form of public knowledge of just how low he is prepared to sink

not much of a choice is it

ScaryFucker · 22/10/2010 19:39

btw, I contributed greatly to MrsJ's thread in much the same vein

and although she never took my (and similar advice) I respect her as a poster on MN who can give you great insight

Bloomintroll · 23/10/2010 12:59

Scary; if I were looking at someone else in this situation I would probably agree 100% with you! I've always believed and said that infidelity is an absolute deal-breaker. I gave him a final chance before and now I find myself in a similar situation again.

Yes he swears he always used condoms except once and he then had an STD check. He says he has not met anyone for physical sex since 3 years ago. I think that this is probably true because he has admitted to so many other things that at this stage it would not really make any diference to deny this. Though that's not to say it might be another lie.

I don't really know what I want. I do know that DCs adore him and they are very happy kids with a strong sense of security. I grew up with parents at war and I would hate to cause this pain to my children. Even though I know it's not me that has split our family but H, still I would not want them to go through what would inevitably a traumatic and damaging split. My own experience from my parents is that it's something I've never really got over and it's had a really profound effect on my life.

My own emotions are too numb at the moment to allow myself to think about how I really feel, except for deep anger and bitterness. I'm just taking things a day at a time and trying to keep myself together emotionally in front of other people.

We work together and alongside other people, so that poses its own significant problems. Work can't provide an escape, and we need to spend a fair bit of time together with other people around. The business is also owned by the two of us jointly and is currently based in our home. That makes separation much more difficult, but I also recognise that it also underlines his own total disregard for the consequences of his actions. It's not just losing wife and family, but also home, business, reputation etc

It's probably also relevant that we met when we were both very young and went straight from college to living together. So we've always been together since we were adults.

I want to give this a final shot becasue we have spent a lot of time being genuinely happy together and I want to hope that could eventually happen again.

Why should he get another chance?

  1. I don't think that he had truly confronted his actions before last week
  2. I have now gone public with my mum and a good friend. My mum has told him she will be on his case and that she will not hesitate to encourage and help me to leave him if he does not sort himself out.
  3. He has sworn he will tell me each day that he has been 'clean' and so far he has stuck to this.
  4. He has made an appointment to see someone next week who deals with 'sex addiction'.
  5. He has moved from saying 'x happened' to saying 'I did x'. Not all the time, but it's a start.
  6. I am constantly challenging him to blame himself for everything he has done. It's not 'weakness', 'impulse', 'dealing with stress', 'feeling rejected' or anything like that. All of this was his choice and I keep repeating this, which I didn't really do before as I felt that I was at least partly at fault.
  7. I have started asking a lot of detailed questions about his activities, including highly contentious stuff like how much money he's spent. I keep asking so he can't brush it aside and avoid thinking about it.
  8. We have been to view local office space so that we can move the business out of the house and have some separation between home and work.

BUT I'm a realist, though it may look as though I'm a pathetic self-deluding optimist, so I know that all the above may mean nothing when it comes to the crunch. It's wait and see and do lots of talking.

OP posts:
Xales · 23/10/2010 13:54

So very sorry you are going through this and I hope you can work it out. But

yuck............

your husband has constantly and repeatedly dipped himself into willing women again and again and again who have probably willingly done this again and again and again with other men.

Whether he used condoms or not PLEASE go and get an STD check!!!!!

Bloomintroll · 24/10/2010 10:58

Thanks for your advice. It had not even occurred to me that I should need do this! I will do this asap

OP posts:
ScaryFucker · 24/10/2010 21:50

ok, BT

I am sorry I wasn't around yesterday to reply to you

you need your mum to "police him"

he has to check in with you daily to "confirm he is clean"

what the fuck are you doing ?????

you can talk at him all you like, and "challenge" him all you like, but it's all hot air

he will do what he pleases, unless he decided what has gone before was unacceptable and wrong

what has he shown by his actions that makes you think all this one-sided effort from you is going to make the slightest fucking difference at all ???

ScaryFucker · 24/10/2010 21:50

I am so angry, I cannot tell you how much

Bloomintroll · 26/10/2010 18:06

Thanks SF- I am angry enough for myself.

I'm not policing him. I didn't ask for these reports and have made it clear that if he wants to do this, then it's up to him, not me. He is welcome to make daily reports, but they buy absolutely nothing. I am not offering anything in return for 'good behaviour'. I've made it clear that if he does any therapy then it's to sort himself out. Whatever the outcome between us, he really needs to have an honest look at himself.

My mum is willing to support me to leave and it's important that he knows this. She is not policing him; that's not her job. Nor is it her job to make any decisions about leaving for me. But in view of her and my family history, the fact that she knows the situation and can offer me practical support to make a break is actually a very big deal.

I've not yet made any decisions. My over-riding consideration remains my daughters. I know that they would be devastated to lose their world and I'm not ready at the moment for them to be so deeply hurt.

What actions has he shown, you ask, which might mean something?
One of the really big ones was going to speak to my mum. That was actually a very sigificant action.
He's made progress in finding office space- also quite a big deal.
He's made an appointment for Friday to see a therapist.
He's taken over all my work in the office so I can leave home for most of the week.
He's always very good in the house and does a good 50% of house and kids, but he's also done all my share as well in the last 2 weeks.
He's given me as much time as I've wanted on my own, so taking the kids out whenever I've asked so I can be alone.

OP posts:
ThickFucker · 27/10/2010 10:00

I know that they would be devastated to lose their world

is this "the world" you want for them ?

a father who risks his own, but most importantly their mother's health in the compulsive pursuit of sordid sexual kicks ?

what kind of therapist is he seeing ? A specialist sex therapist ? Or one that he can charm by telling them what a dutiful husband he is, because he does a bit of housework and takes the kids out ?

Those practical things he is doing are contributing nothing to proving he has changed. They will buy him time and shut you up for a while. Until the coast is clear.

I realise I am saying stuff you don't want to hear and I am not sure why I am replying since there is a 2 day gap between posts here.

But this man doesn't deserve, nor really even want , a stable family life no matter what pretty words he says to you.

And it is hard to think of someone out there, swallowing such utter disrespect on behalf of their female children. What would you tell them if they come to you in 15 years time with a similar tale ?

Doha · 27/10/2010 10:08

Oh dear time to cut your losses me thinks.

He will never change, he will lull you into a false sense of security doing exactly what he is doing and playing the repentant nice guy.. But he has done this before and reverted back to his old ways once he thought he was safe.

He will do it again but he wil be more careful next time not to get caught.

Get you STI check--he needs one as well.

Leave while you still have a bit of self respect left.

you and your DC's deserve better than this tosser

Bloomintroll · 27/10/2010 16:04

SF; are there ANY actions you would take as signs of genuine commitment to acknowledge his actions and to change or was your question about actions simply rhetorical? I took your question literally and gave some examples.

The one about the office space is quite significant because he understands well that this will make it much easier for me to leave. As long as we have to maintain a working relationship at home in front of employees, it's very hard to do anything but try to carry on. As soon as we have the office (maybe in 2 weeks) we will be able to separate home and business without doing significant damage to the business which supports us both and which we jointly own.

I'm not making any efforts at the moment; I don't feel that I need to. I'm simply waiting to see what happens and I'm checking how I feel on a daily basis.

OP posts:
Bloomintroll · 30/10/2010 14:10

I think I've now got at least some answers to the question in my original post so here they are in case anyone else finds themselves dealing with similar issues. I really appreciate that people have cared enough to post advice and comments. Thank you all.

H has now seen a psychotherapist who specialises in helping people to change their thinking and compulsive behaviour around sex. The AA style Twelve Step programme of self-help and group therapy has a good success rate for those who truly commit to it. H starts next week with around 3 meetings per week for the initial phase and will attend sessions for between 6 and 12 months.

OP posts:
OmniaParatus · 30/10/2010 18:16

I've had a similar (but not so bad) experience with DH, he persistently used porn online at the expense of our sex life on and off. I eventually discovered he was having sex in chatrooms, although he had never met up with anyone in RL. He said he was addicted as he felt a compulsion to do this, and felt ashamed and disgusted but still would do this, even though I had threatened to leave him if he did not stop.

I was totally destroyed, but didn't want to end the relationship as we have 2 young children. In the end he joined an online counselling group, and gave up all unsupervised internet access (only my laptop has access now and it is password protected). All his access at work and through work phone is monitored.

I don't know if he will stop this if I am completely honest. I know he has not done it again as he has no opportunity, and I hope he never will in future, but if he does, it is over.

I know how you feel in terms of giving your relationship another chance, even though you have every reason not to. I hope you can work it out, as I hope I can, but I just wanted to say I can understand why you are trying, and good luck.

Bloomintroll · 30/10/2010 18:43

Thanks for sharing this and I wish you the very best.

Did he find the online group helpful? Has he ever considered or tried the RL group meetings?

OP posts:
dignified · 30/10/2010 20:52

Im not sure i buy into the " sex addiction " theory . Youve caught him twice , that doesnt mean hes only done it twice , i think these two occasions are the tip of the iceburg.

I think he just feels entitled and will continue regardless .

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