WWIFN - I know you are in demand but..

[PBGirl]

Hi WWIFN. I know you seem to be in great demand at the moment but I just wanted to share some thoughts with you. I'm hoping you remember my story, if not I'll remind you of the details.

An update: We are doing ok. I'm still feeling very let down and I feel like I am grieving for the trust I had for my husband. I have had some very angry outbursts at my H and he is starting to struggle. I guess the difficulty is that he has no defense and he just has to take everything I throw at him. He is being very accommodating with my anger, my sadness and my obsessive questions but he is starting to show signs of depression and he is losing weight (he hasn't got any spare to lose). Apart from going to work he hasn't left my side. He can't afford to be distracted at work because his job is so dangerous.

Anyway, I have been thinking a lot about his childhood and wanted to share my thoughts with you. When I met him he was on the verge of depression. When we were together we was really happy and lively and full of fun but when we were apart (it was a long distance relationship for a year and we could only see each other at weekends) we would often phone in tears. After many hours talking he told me that his Mother just didn't seem to really like him! She (and to a lesser extent his Father) were consistent philanderers. Sometimes he would get home from school and one of them would have moved out. He also remembers his parents physically fighting, they eventually divorced when my H was at university. By the time we moved in together he was much happier and he didn't worry about his Mum quite so much. I think she does love him but she certainly doesn't show it. Here is one example of how his past has affected him: in the early years of our marriage he once came home from work to see that I had been moving suit cases around, I was out and his immediate thought was that I had left him! He phoned round friends to try and find me until he remembered that I was doing an evening shift at work. He is so scared now that he will come home one day and I will be gone. I have no intention of leaving and have tried to reassure him of this.

I know what he has done to me is terrible but isn't it time I start putting things in perspective? There was no physical infidelity, he has insecurities about love which stem from his childhood, he is so incredibly sorry, he says his affair was virtual and that it was the messages he got his pleasure from and not the other woman as a person. I'm so confused still. One minute (like now) I am thinking as I have just written in this paragraph and half an hour later I can be in floods of tears because I can't believe he has betrayed me so badly. We are spending a lot of time hugging and kissing and when I kiss him I can sense the relief that he is feeling. Even though he is the cause of all this pain he is still my rock.

Thanks for listening.

I remember you well PB Girl and am more than happy to help.

First of all, it is evident from what you say that your husband loves you enormously. Really, really loves you.

One of the things I recall from your deleted thread was that he was astonished at how highly he featured in your esteem. Perhaps because of his childhood and especially his mothering, he is someone who needs constant reassurance that he is valuable and worthwhile. I expect he is horrified that for a time, he valued cheap compliments from someone whose opinion didn't matter.

One of the things you might need to work on is how his esteem is defined - and yours too! If he is working in a field that is male-dominated too, his interactions with colleagues or friends might be rather superficial, so receiving positive feedback from women is especially intoxicating.

As for your feelings, they are normal and understandable. The irony is that he has fallen from that great pedestal and for a time, he might need to accept that because he put sexual flattery and esteem above his marriage for a while, he has lost something far more precious; the esteem in which he was held in by you, in terms of his character and values. It will come back if you continue to talk and share, reassure one another and heal together.

He needs to be sure that he will never compromise his fidelity again, but it would be worth digging deep to agree together on what needs this relationship unleashed - and where they were formed i.e. a need for an ego boost, compliments, sexual flattery, adoration etc. I understand precisely that your H was addicted to the buzz of this - and not the woman herself. That happens a lot.

Keep posting and updating. You might want to think about writing a journal about your thoughts. These early days are a nightmare of conflicting emotions, but it could be cathartic to write it all down and review your progress throughout.

Thanks WWFIN. He is absolutely positive that he will never compromise his fidelity again - I have made it quite clear that I will not be able to go through this sort of pain again and it is clear that he wouldn't be able to go through with it again either. I do commend him for being able to tell me the contents of some of the messages - he has told me the contents of the ones that involved sex (they only happened in the first couple of days), it was very humiliating for him to repeat the words to me.

In the past I have accused him of wanting me to 'massage his ego'. There have been times (not recently) where he has said that I maybe don't really like him anymore but I often took this as a way of seeking an ego boost and probably haven't been very sympathetic to it (not always though).

He has also had a difficult year at work. Firstly, he was nearly killed in January and secondly he has felt a bit redundant (all to do with contracts etc, not actually a reflection on his work at all but he hasn't always seen it like that). I also put a lot of pressure on him to stay living where we do when his company have been pressuring him to move hundreds of miles away.

We are making our way through 'not just friends' and there are things in there that seem to ring true with us. He will be away again next week and I am hoping that we will turn another corner before he goes.

There is a possibility that he will have to see the OW next month at work. He has been honest and told me that it is a ? on his schedule and he has tried to book leave for that date. If there is no avoiding it, it will be a hard time for both of us.

To WWIFN, from DH

My Wife has explained very fairly, perhaps too fairly, my slip into an emotional affair.

When I met XXXX, I admit she was an attractive female, although I had no intentions of contacting her
and under normal circumstances never would. I love my wife wholeheartedly, she is my soulmate, friend
lover and everything a man could wish for in a wife. I adore and desire her for many, many reasons,
and the thought of losing her over this is unbearable.

It began like this: After meeting for a Work related activity, she stole my mobile number from her boss's telephone.
After a while I received a text message saying how nice it was to meet me. I replied, saying politely it was.
She continued to text me about her disappointment of not being able to do the work related activity (it was cancelled)
, and I diligently replied. I was stuck in an airport room on my own, and initially it gave me something to do.
Slowly, over the course of these text messages it transpired that she thought I was good looking, sexy and how much she was attracted
to me. I told her she too was attractive, although I can't say I was at any point physically attracted to the
woman, I took an certain amount of excitement from receiving the messages from an attractive female.

At some point I must have crossed the threshold into infidelity, as I started to hide the messages from my
family. I didn't like having the secret and It made me feel very bad and guilty inside. I wanted to tell my wife
but I knew how angry she would be and decided to keep it to myself. I told XXXX that I couldn't ever be unfaithful
and I wanted her to know that. I stopped her messages at least twice so I could forget about it, but once she came back to me,
and I admit that latterly I encouraged it again. I got a feeling of excitement from the things that she
said about me, and I admit I sent some back which I reciprocated, this only served to fuel the heat from which
I had grown to like. In my confusion I don't know if I believed what I was writing or not. Looking back I realise
it was untrue, at the time my excitement confused my feelings.

Sometimes she sent me pictures, and we even talked on the phone, both at her suggestion.
I wasn't at all excited by her physically, even though she had a attractive body, I know I could only ever
make love to my wife, as her love for me, and mine for her, make it the most wonderful thing I have, apart from
my children who were borne from it.

I feel physically sick, that I allowed myself to be excited by these messages, and that I hid it from
the most special person in my life. It became too big for my to explain, like a cancerous growth inside me which
confused my feelings of love and excitement thought flattery. I spent more time looking at the picture of myself
than I did of her. I was pretty confused, and I started being cold with my wife as the secrets inside my head were
killing me. Still though I continued for nearly six weeks, as a respite from the guilt.

I am glad and relieved that my wife now knows the truth about how I solicited this relationship, and I am ashamed
of myself for allowing it to happen for so long. When it exploded I had an overwhelming sense of relief, as
though been freed from an addiction, which I still feel, at least now I can attempt to rebuild the bonds with
my beautiful wife in some way. My feelings for XXXX were quickly revealed to be based in a fantasy world,
as I have no desire to have any contact with her whatsoever. In the last few days of my relationship with her,
I had reaffirmed my desire to stop the relationship going any further. The meeting that was a possibility
was a constant worry to me, and when I played it out in my head, I knew that to be with this or any other
woman was not something I either wanted or desired. I enjoyed and possibly became addicted to our
conversations, because of the feelings it gave me. Pictures and photographs of her which I looked at
were uncomfortable because it made the whole thing seem more like a reality. I preferred the relationship
in the realms of unreality. I had no desire to telephone her again, I had no desire to make any moves on her
should the opportunity have arisen, to touch another woman would make me flinch.

I am truly sorry and I hope I can repair the masses of damage which I have caused. I desperately want
to return to my normal life, making improvements where I can in terms of my weaknessess and vulnerabilities.
I am too grateful to receive affection, whether this is something I have lacked in the past I don't know, I'm
not making any excuses for my behaviour but the fact is know that I have wronged. I know I can put this right, and I
know what to do to stop anything like this occurring in the future.

The most painful thing is to realise how much I am loved, and how much I love my wife, and then to wake
in the morning with the realisation of what I have done.

I will never stop trying to get my wife back, if it takes me to the edge of sanity, then so be it.

DH

Mr PBGirl - I find your post fascinating. The scenario you describe is very similar to one my DH was involved in. The feelings and thoughts you describe are almost identical to those he describes (and which I am struggling to understand)- being drawn to something you didn't want, encouraging attentions from someone you didn't really feel attracted to, being hooked into the flattery and the feelings of excitement her attentions gave you about yourself rather than about the her. Unfortunately my DH didn't stay in the fantasy/electronic relationship and took it to the next stage, meeting up with the ow for sex - once. He describes this as a disaster and a traumatic experience which jolted him back to his senses. He also says he experienced overwhelming relief when the truth finally came out.

I have no answers I'm afraid - I wish I did.

Hello catwalker. I have been reading your latest thread, it all sounds so complicated. It is hard to understand how somebody can be so easily sucked in and start sending messages they don't really mean. I think I can see how my H became addicted to the flattery but what I can't understand is why he didn't come to his senses a bit quicker. In his case, I am certain that the OW had done it before and that with her first message she had every intention of pushing it as far as she could. If you just intended to say 'it was nice to meet you today', I really don't think you would go to the effort of snooping on your boss' phone to get a number. The other thing was that she seemed to have a photo of herself in her pants ready to send him - she sent it from her office, it's not as if the thought came to her in a flash so she tore her clothes off at work to take the picture. None of this excuses my husband's behaviour but it does help me to realise that she was the pushy one (at least in the beginning). I'm sure that under normal circumstances my husband would have seen through her and realised what kind of a person she is but in the virtual world of texting he fell for it. As he said, if at the end of their meeting she had said ' hey, why don't we embark in a text affair' he would have just laughed and said no way!

Hi PB Girl. I am so glad you're still posting. As an aside, I'd really welcome your thoughts as you continue to read NJF, especially any insights you gain about you as individuals and why this could happen to your H, but not you.

There's another interesting thread at the moment about the motivations of women who target men in committed relationships, but I also wanted to comment on what has been said about the texting element.

The remoteness of E mails and texting featured at the start of catwalker's story, mine and yours too. I am utterly convinced that if each interaction in all three cases had been face to face in the very early days, the end stories would have been very different.

In our case, my H had worked with the OW over a decade before she got in touch by E mail, completely out of the blue. In the 1990s when they had worked together, the OW had in fact told my H that she really fancied him and wanted a relationship. That declaration was face to face and he told me about it at the time.

He felt flattered but horrified and told her in very clear terms that he wasn't interested and was very happiy married. When he went on to have an affair with her in 2008, she admitted that she had regretted showing her hand too early before and knew that she would have to "woo" my H if there was a next time.

She did have some sense too, of the buttons to press with my DH. When he worked with her, she had turned to my H because she felt she was being bullied by the women she worked with. My H detests bullying and was sympathetic. We concluded together at the time that although the OW's own behaviour towards her colleagues had won her no favours (surprise, surprise, she had slept with one of their boyfriends), the attraction to my H was because he had been sympathetic and protective to a woman in distress.

Therefore after months of fairly restrained and polite E mail communication, swapping those irritating round-robin type jokes or internet scare stories that do the rounds, the concept of being in "safe" touch had been established. Gradually, more personal information was volunteered by the OW, about her unhappy marriage, her H's infidelities, her loneliness after suffering yet more bullying at every other place she had worked at in the intervening years. The "victim" role that was bound to attract sympathy from my H was established yet again.

My H has said since that if he had heard all this face-to-face - and critically, had told me about the renewed contact, he suspects that some alarm bells would have rung - just as yours would have rung PB Girl if your H had told you that a woman had managed to get his number by foul means. Had my H told me about these tales of woe from the OW, I might have queried the victim status and wondered what she had been doing (again) to attract the hate of her colleagues.

In our case, it took 10 months for the OW to reveal her hand, by which time it was pretty academic about who would flinch first - my H now admits that by this time, he had become addicted to the adoration, the flattery and the buzz of being in constant contact with a woman he still hadn't seen in over a decade.

It had become completely normalised for him by then, although he had persistently refused to meet up with her. Just prior to him agreeing to meet her "for a coffee", she had teased him that he was over-dramatising a simple coffee between old colleagues, what on earth did he expect her to do to him, when they met? More delusions of "safety" then, from the OW who knew that this was too early to reveal her hand.

It is no coincidence I feel, that the OW built in a delay between that agreement to meet and the meeting itself. The texting and occasional phone calls and E mails continued until she declared what she would like the meeting to comprise - sex. By that time, that's what my H wanted too, but my H has always said that if they had met for the billed "friendly coffee" and she had said she wanted a sexual relationship face to face at that meeting, it would have seemed far too real and he would have said "no" even then.

He has often said that the whole thing didn't seem "real" until he was driving to her house - and wishes that like your H, he had acted on his feelings of fear, but of course, mixed in with those feelings were lust and excitement. He was too far gone by then to turn back and also remembers an utterly banal thought, which was that she had been cleaning the house all day and "it wouldn't be fair on her if he didn't show"! We are both under no illusions whatsoever now incidentally that it would have taken a major emergency (extraneous event) for him to back out by that point, because quite simply, he didn't want to.

Remote communication, whether it's texts, phone calls, E mails, social networking sites etc. facilitates adultery amongst weak characters, precisely because it doesn't "feel real".

Take huge comfort as a couple that although there were weaknesses in your H to permit what happened, he is in fact a stronger character than either my H, or catwalker's H were, 2 years ago. I think you're going to be just fine, and your H's words remind me so much of my H's on discovery - absolute devastation that he had destroyed something so precious, for someone so worthless.

Thanks for your response WWIFN, I have only skim read it as I have people arriving at the house in a couple of minutes but I will be back later for a thorough read. I'll fill you in on the last few days too. What do you think to my husband's words? He said the other day that he would love the opportunity to speak to you (we have both been very grateful for your wisdom!) so I suggested he just put in a post for you. x

Hi WWIFN, I have now read your post thoroughly. I think there is a little bit of comfort to read the similarities about the 'virtual' relationships. It was hard to believe at first but I am starting to believe that the messages were the key. My H says that at the time he was confused about his feelings for the OW but that looking back now it was the flattery that he desired and not the OW herself. It's hard to know if that's really what he believes or if it's just what he wants to believe.

As I read your posts and read through the book it is becoming more and more apparent that she knew what she was doing. She hooked him on with harmless messages and then little by little she took it to a new, slightly deeper level. I'm also starting to understand my H's weaknesses and why he fell for it. Don't get me wrong, I still realise that it was the stupidest thing he has ever done but it is done and can't be undone now. We have to reflect and learn and keep moving forward, maybe in the end our relationship will be stronger, we will certainly never take each other for granted again.

I have had a difficult few days (today is good though). I suffer very badly with PMT so I knew I had a hard few days coming up. I have been seeking medical help for it for a few years but to no avail. Firstly, I kept my H up talking until 2 in the morning digging and accusing. Not necessarily about the facts but about his feelings for her. I was very hurt that after breaking off with her part way through the relationship he contacted her again to make sure she was okay. This really, really hurt. The night after I just fell apart. I told him he and the children would be better off without me because I was holding back his recovery and that I should just go and live on my own or even walk in front of a car. Even before the affair, during my worst few days of PMT I would feel out of control of my feelings and perhaps even slightly insane. At the time I was saying these things I'm not sure if I thought I really meant it or if I was just trying to punish my H although I did feel very very low. I couldn't imagine life with him and I couldn't imagine life without him. He went off to work yesterday and left me walking round in a daze and barely speaking, during the day my period started and by the time he got home I was smiling and getting on with things.

I am finding the book interesting. When I read the case studies in the book it horrifies me and I wonder how on earth people can overcome affairs where their partner has been so emotionally and physically involved with somebody else. I am grateful that it never became physical in my case.

I'm going to confess now that I have done something which may be very wrong. I have sent an email to the OW. A few days after the discovery I sent her a message because I wanted her to know how much pain she had caused and how distraught we both were. She replied to that message saying she was sorry and that she was at a low point but that she should never have let it get so far. As I have been taking more steps forward I have been thinking about her and what she thinks. I hated the thought that she might be feeling so powerful that she might have broken up a good marriage. I realise she might not be feeling like that but there are little tell tale signs in the way that she started the affair that make me think she has done it before. I wanted her to know that what she had with my H was actually pretty meaningless and cheap and that his only pleasure was the flattery he got from her. I wanted her to know that our marriage was worth more than that and that if it had been face to face it never would have even started. I told her that if she has got problems in her own relationship she needs to address them and sort it out and that chasing after married men is just going to give her a miserable life. I kept it fairly dignified although I admit I did have a couple of little unfriendly digs. Is that a terrible thing to have done? I just felt that it would help me put her in a box and put the lid on so that I can stop worrying about her and concentrate on moving my marriage forward.

PS I will think carefully as I continue to read the book and let you know my thoughts.

Okay, a few thoughts PB Girl.

I understand why you had a meltdown when you heard that your H had bothered to check if the OW was okay, but you might remember me saying on another thread that it was a respondent on my very first thread (5-6 months after discovery) who gave me a different perspective on why my H was trying to end the relationship with OW, without cruelty. That poster commented that my H's actions after discovery demonstated that this was a man who cared very much and who was taking responsibility for his own part in the affair.

The fact that he had been trying to end their relationship with the least amount of negative feeling, further demonstrated that he wasn't trying to evade his own responsibility for what had happened, or to put the blame on to her. He did care about her feelings and didn't want to hurt her, or be cruel.

Now at the moment, you might think you would have preferred cruelty and contempt for the OW by your H, but a few months on, you might see this differently. He was as much responsible as her for this relationship and at least part of his checking that she was okay, was to ensure that no lasting hurt or damage had been caused to her. These are the actions of a caring man who wanted to take responsibility.

Now that's the primary reason, I suspect, but what you might also want to explore with your H is whether there were subconscious, darker motivations for this "kindness" - keeping the OW "on side" and on the back-burner if he should change his mind. And whether, whenever this "are you okay?" message was sent, he wasn't yet ready to give up contact completely, or to banish her from his life forever.

It took my H a whole year after discovery to acknowledge that if this relationship had ended "pleasantly" and had gone undiscovered, had she contacted him again after a break of some sort, when the bad memories of the rubbish sex, the deceit and the guilt had faded, it may well have started up again in some form. So in his case, at least some of the subconscious motivation for being kind, was a resistance to burning his boats completely with her. He still says he thinks he would never have started this again with her, but he admits that he cannot be certain, especially if this had gone undetected and he had never had to face the consequences with me.

I completely understand your desire to put the OW straight and if this now brings you some comfort, that is all for the good, but just be careful that you don't direct more blame in her direction, than this merits. She is blameworthy, but not more so than your H. He should have said "no thanks" and his antennae needs to be much sharper, if a casual acquaintance tries to strike up a relationship with him again.

The very best way of bringing you some peace of mind as far as the OW is concerned, is if your H speaks to her and is honest, taking full responsibility for his own actions. I understand your concerns that he might meet up with her again through work, but rather than avoid this, I'd counsel you to want that meeting to take place. If your H is able to conclude this and leave no room for doubt with her - and finds that he can be in this woman's presence without it being a threat, that is surely better than avoiding her. Having read what he's got to say, I've got great faith in him that he would do the right thing - so should you.

When I read your H's words, I found myself nodding away, because they resonated so strongly with what my H says about the start of his relationship with OW. Your H seems to be in the same frame of mind as my H was, after discovery. It was clear before he wrote, that he loves you deeply - and further reinforces that affairs happen in happy marriages to people who love their partners very much. But this is why I have said throughout that the vulnerability was with your H; not you or the marriage. Your H is wearing a hair-shirt now and is self-flagellating, while you will want to punish him and see his sorrow.

All this is understandable at this stage, but at some point, he will need to take that hair shirt off, because it can get in the way of proper understanding and unlocking why this really happened.

There is a period after an affair, when the betrayed person feels like their life is ruined, whether they stay with their spouse or not. This doesn't make rational sense to anyone who hasn't been through it and no doubt there will be some lurkers reading this thread who are thinking "FFS, this wasn't even an affair!!" Others will be thinking that a woman with high esteem wouldn't be totally floored by something like this and that your happiness shouldn't be defined by your marriage. Some (as you discovered on your original thread) will believe that no second chances should be given, once emotional fidelity is compromised.

There will be other posters though, who have gone through this, who can truly empathise. I can tell you that you will get past those feelings and get to the point where you will realise your life isn't ruined at all. There may even come a time when you can look back on this as a blessing - a true blessing.

My H often says he wouldn't want to be the man he was in 2008, but strangely enough, I wouldn't want to be the woman I was then, either. I have learned so much, about myself and about relationships, since that time. All this has helped me to re-frame what makes me happy - to value the people who enhance my life - and to devote less energy to the people and things that don't.

Our marriage was good and happy before my H's affair, but it is better now, because there is proper honesty between us.

In 2008, I thought my H loved me more than I loved him - and he thought the same, although he says it wasn't ever something he faced up to, he just sort of "knew it". That's not the case now, we both know that we love eachother deeply and in equal measure.

So make this count for something, both of you. Question everything and treat it as an opportunity and not the dark threat it appeared to be.

And do keep posting. As I always say to catwalker, it really helps to "talk" to someone who has gone through this and come out the other side with their marriage not just intact, but stronger. Always willing to help.

Thank you, it certainly does help to talk, especially as I haven't told anyone in the real world. I maybe should have done but I don't want people to judge my husband or our marriage. I am sure that one day I will get over this but people outside the relationship probably wouldn't have the same understanding.

I know that when he sent the 'are you okay?' message he had every intention of starting it up again (this was about two weeks before he told me about it). He carried on with fairly regular texts that week (although less than previously) and after a week it had fizzled right down and he only sent 4 in the final week. He says at that point he knew it had to end. When I questioned him about why he didn't just end it then, he said he didn't think it was right to do it by text. I was furious, I felt he didn't owe her anything and after all, it had started by text. A few days after discovery he sent her a text making it quite clear that it was definitely over (I had already sent a very brief message so she knew that I knew by then). I asked him at the time if he had said sorry and he said he had and that is what I expected.

Over the last two days I think I have been projecting more blame onto the OW and I know this is wrong, I am also aware that it might come back and bite me on the bum because really I am just kidding myself. My H read the message that I sent her today and his reaction was not to forget that he too was responsible.

I don't think I would want to hear that he had been cruel to her but I also didn't really want to hear that he had 'cared' about her feelings. This was supposed to be a virtual relationship without true feelings.

I'm not sure I would cope at all well with their meeting. The work bit wouldn't be so bad but it will actually involve two nights in a hotel many miles from here. It's not that I don't trust my husband - I don't trust her, she knew he was married before she contacted him so obviously has very little conscience. But to be honest, just the thought of him being near her makes me feel sick.

When my Husband told me all about it I did feel that my life was completely ruined. I had never imagined that this sort of thing would happen to us and I had certainly never contemplated life without him. I still have these feelings occasionally, but less often and not as strong. I think the hardest thing that I am dealing with is the fact that for six weeks of our lives he had his own little world going on that I was excluded from, we have always been so honest with each other. I didn't even try to hide my postings on Mumsnet!

I'm so glad that you and your husband have worked everything out, for one it's good that you are happy and for two it gives me hope. I'm so glad you saw my original post as I was pulling my hair out with the negative 'if my H did that he'd be out' kind of comments. Thank you.

Hi WWIFN, I just wanted to let you know that I haven't forgotten about sharing my thoughts on NJFs. We are both making our way steadily through the book and there are a few things that jump out as us. I think what I will probably do is get through it for myself and then go through it again later and give you my thoughts then. I'll start a thread and just hope that you see it. The book is certainly helping us both understand how it may have all happened, although I still have a voice that says 'I don't care, you still should have known better!' A bit of a way to go I suppose but I'm sure we'll get there. Thanks.

Thanks for updating PBGirl. I often think about you and think you have been extremely selfless trying to help others over the past week, on here.

I'd love to read your thoughts when you have processed the book. I will always recognise you on a new thread, so look forward to hearing from you.

Hello WWIFN. I feel like I need to post but I don't really know what I want to say! I feel very confused. I am understanding more everyday about the causes of my H's insecurities and vulnerabilities but I'm still feeling pretty low.

Even though he has said all along that he will never give up, whenever I have a bit of a bad moment (or rather a really bad moment) he says that he would understand if I decide to leave. Now this attitude was making me feel worse as to me it felt like he was just ready to give up although he insists he isn't. Yesterday we finally got to the root of why he thinks the way he does. I think I mentioned to you before that when he was a child both of his parents were unfaithful to each other and he used to see them fighting a lot. In fact, he can't remember EVER seeing any affection between them. He remembers as a young teenager arriving home from school to find that his mother had moved out. This happened more than once and nobody ever told him why. He didn't see this as his Mum and Dad falling out, he saw it as his Mother not loving him (my H) anymore and just leaving him. Yesterday I must have told my H about four times that I still loved him and that I had no intention of leaving. When I cried last night he asked if had changed my mind. I was mad, and reminded him how many times that day alone that I had reassured him of my feelings. He thought maybe I had just stopped loving him and wanted to go. When he goes to work he wonders if during the day I will change my mind and be gone by the time he gets back!

His mother still doesn't show him any affection, in fact, the only time she is attentive is when my family are about because I think she resents the closeness that he has with them.

There is more information about his past that I would like to give you but I am reluctant to make it public on here. I would hate to be recognised and make my H's issues known.

One of the reasons I always thought our marriage was affair proof was because of the damage and trauma that my H suffered as a child and a young adult at the hands of his parents' infidelity. I thought he would NEVER put his own family through that (the horror that he nearly did will never leave him I'm sure) and on my part, I remember how screwed up he was about it when we met so knew the damage it could do. However, it would seem that the affect on my H was just the opposite: it left him craving affection, adoration and constant reassurance that he is loved. So, when it was offered to him on a plate he took it. I always knew he needed this reassurance but I obviously underestimated how much.

Now I suppose the tables have turned a bit. My self esteem (which was never great) has hit an all time low and he has come to realise just how much he is adored by me.

On another note, I said up thread that I had emailed the OW. Well, she had the cheek to send a message to my husband saying the she had already apologised to me and explained that it was all her fault but that I had sent her another massive email saying cruel and nasty things! It's almost laughable. In a way it was good because it gave my H and me a chance to put up that 'wall' between her and our marriage with a very polite but concise final message. Thanks for listening.

PBGirl if you are still around just want to say hello and thanks.Your post and the comments of WWIFN hve been a great help.I posted earlier last week when out of the blue I had a really bad day-several months on from discovery of my DH's EA-just as I felt I was on the mend BANG came back all the feelings you describe.It could be our scenario -and my DH has felt all the same remorse and disbelief at how he behaved , and sorrow for the hurt caused.Didn't post before last week as wanted to keep very private and concentrate on us talking things through-and then with a counsellor.But agree other posts I've looked in on where comments like 'if my DH did that he'd be out the door' didn't help- after a long and happy marriage to a good,kind man who has never let me down before nothing's that simple is it? Just want to say hang on in there both of you.You sound a lovely caring couple who deserve many happier years together once you've worked your way through this.We've had our best week since our 'crisis' began and I'm finally beginning to believe what WWIFN says in that this may be the start of a better,more honest love between us- and that we will be stronger as a result.All the best!

Hi snugglepiggie. It's a hard situation isn't it, and I think one that neither of us ever expected to be in. Like you, we were very happily married and I the thought of my H being unfaithful never seemed like a possibility. My H's affair was all by text (with just one phone call) and I am grateful that it never became 'real'. He is in fact adamant that face to face nothing would have ever happened, I am trying to believe that but the truth is that neither of us will ever know for sure. The OW managed to manipulate him and entice him every step of the way and I do wonder if he'd have been strong enough to say 'no' if the opportunity ever arose.

I realise my last sentence sounds like I am entirely blaming the OW. I'm not, my H is totally responsible for his own actions but I do believe that he would never have gone out looking for it and the OW did admit that she had gone after him.

I am so grateful to some of the posters on here for their advice, especially WWIFN. Her help has been invaluable and without it I think our recovery would have been much slower. You will have seen up-thread that my H has lots of past issues that I think made him vulnerable but without the help of WWIFN and others I think I would have struggled to see the relevance.

I know you were recommended a book on your thread but I can't remember which one. We have been reading 'Not Just Friends' which has been quite helpful. A lot of it isn't relevant to us but it has still been really useful and it has made me realise that couples can overcome much more serious affairs than the one my husband had.

We are having a pretty bad year in general really, with other things going on in our life and I think that in itself would have been a test on any marriage. We are sticking together and we will recover from this. I hope that it will make what was a strong marriage even stronger and closer. I have always insisted that our marriage was strong but I can see now that we may have slipped into a steady life where we maybe didn't appreciate each other enough. I suppose having children, and being a foster mother meant that my husband was last on the list for attention and affection and I think sometimes I did push him away because I just didn't have time. I'm still not taking any responsibility for his actions, he still should have known better but it has made me realise that there are improvements we can both make.

I hope you have had a good day today. I know only too well the good day - wobbly day feeling and so does my husband!

Keep in touch. X

PB Girl and snuggle I understand exactly about the bad days followed by a few better days. This is par for the course I'm afraid.

I'm glad PBGirl that you're getting to the root of some of this with your H. I think infidelity (even undiscovered) has a terrible impact on children, especially when the issue is not discussed, or learned from. Likewise, my H's parents' relationship was blighted by infidelity and a lack of affection/attention towards their DCs; it has affected DH and every one of his siblings to various degrees.

There is precious little understanding about infidelity - as you will have seen from snuggle's thread - even from people who have been through it, but I do want to reassure you both that I completely trust what you and your Hs are saying about how this had nothing to do with you or your marriages.

And I'm very willing to talk off board to you both via a PM if you feel that you don't want to share more identifying information on the main thread.

I would like to talk to you off board if that's ok. There is so much more to my H's past that I feel is relevant but I'm not happy to make it public. I will sit down later when the children are in bed. Thank you.

WWIFN my job and lifestyle mean I don't get on-line everyday and last few days have been reading Shirley Glass inbetween work and family stuff.Kept seeing it mentioned when sneaked a peak at other posts in early days and wish I'd got it then!DH wants to read after.OK in he main but then found myself in tears again briefly today-getting lot easier to pull myself round tho.My BIG sticking point however remains the fact that disclosure only came about because her DH saw the text messages and called ,and retrospectively my DH says altho he hadn't made positive move to back away from her he was starting to get bored and annoyed at the insistent flow of messages when he was trying to work.But given that he admits he'd arranged to meet her the next day at luchtime because unexpectedly he had to go to her place of work again(didn't usually go that day of the week)I have this residual doubt-and still feel he was nowhere near withdrawing from meeting up(3/4 times week in semi-public place that both had an excuse to be in as their companies linked)I guess as our counsellor said and the book too he probably will never be able to tell me how much longer it would have continued.But I just get STUCK again and again on this point.Guess it's due to the sudden dramatic way I found out and he instantly stopped contact.P8Girl hope you are doing OK.I concentrate on faking it till I make it sometimes-being as loving and considerate as I can even when I feel secretly narked.Trying to keep that goodwill deposited in the marriage bank.Not always easy!