Staying together for the kids

[CaptainSquidBones]

Has anyone done this or is doing this? How do you make it work?
We have 2 under 5 and the thought of breaking up the family really upsets me but I dont' love my husband and I am 90% sure he doesn't love me. No affairs or anything and no interest in such - from either side so we wouldn't be denying ourselves much.

Can you just agree to be friends with children together in the same house or am I being very naive?

Sorry you feel this way, but if you would choose to split up, then split up. They will not thank you for it in the long run. Children adapt far better to living with separated happy parents than with miserable 'we're doing it for you' together parents, especially since the parents are likely to come to resent it.

Don't do it. Your life will always be undercut by a certain sadness / martyrdom. What happens when they finally leave home? Do you split up then? So effectively telling the children that the relationship was a lie?

There was a post a while ago where the parents split up when the children had finished university. The parents were in their late fifties. The children felt shocked and angry, neither parent found another partner and the children felt an enormous burden or responsibility for their aging parents health/happiness.

Think it through beyond the baby years.

It is much easier to split with younger children than teens and older children/young adults.

From The Children's Society 'A Good Childhood' Report:

"Most of the obstacles children face today are linked to the belief among adults that the prime duty of the individual is to make the most of their own life, rather than contribute to the good of others. The inquiry report, A Good Childhood, says excessive individualism is causing a range of problems for children including: high family break-up, teenage unkindness, commercial pressures towards premature sexualisation, unprincipled advertising, too much competition in education and acceptance of income inequality. The report says that although freedom and self-determination bring many blessings, the balance has tilted too far towards individualism in Britain."

"A child?s performance at secondary school, self esteem and well being as an adult is linked especially to the father?s input. Children, whose parents separate are 50% more likely to fail at school, suffer behavioural difficulties, anxiety or depression."

"So to reduce the level of conflict in family life, parents must give more priority to their relationship. This would do more for children than anything else."

Parents should:

* Make a long term commitment to each other.
* Be fully informed about what is involved before their child is born.
* Love their children, each other and establish boundaries for children. .
* Help children develop spiritual qualities.

Just to state the obvious, have you tried marriage guidance? Of the three options, fixing your relationship has to be the best if at all possible.

It's only your current mindset which makes you find the notion of 'breaking up the family' more upsetting than staying together while unhappy.

For a long time I put up with misery because I couldn't face the reality of being a single parent, the 'stigma'

My children have flourished since I left their father. They still see him, and now we are all a lot happier.

I really pity people who refuse to accept this, and stoicly soldier on using the children as an excuse to hide behind. It's cowardice. And I get that, because it's hard. It does require bravery, accepting that the family hasn't worked.

Good luck to you whatever you do, soldiering on, or splitting up. The thing about the soldiering on option is that it goes on and on. The splitting up option is more traumatic but only initially and then it all gets so much better.

I think the worst thing that can be done to a child is to make them feel (by saying so explicitly or expressing it implicitly) that it's because of them that the parents didn't lead a happy life. What a burden for a child to grow up with, to have unhappy parents (who might be arguing a lot, too, as things do take their toll) & all because of him/her.

Having said that, I do sympathise. It's heartbreaking to think of your young children without both their parents all the time.

You say you're not interested- for the moment- in other relationships. But this may change. So another option might be to live together as friends & have an 'open' relationship. But to be honest, I feel that would produce unneeded complications & an unclear family situation. Much more honest to bite the bullet & separate, perhaps after trying a couples' therapist?

Arfarfa's post is not only depressing, but unrealistic too. You can't be reasonable for somebody else, so a list of rules for both partners to comply with is unrealistic at the end of a marriage. I would like to counter arfarfa's post with a couple of important points to offer up a bit of a balance!

1. there is no way to measure the effect of tension at home on the children. No studies published.
2. an awful lot of the 'issues' which are automatically pinned onto single parents are actually issues of poverty.
3. fewer and fewer families now are the regular 2.4 shape, white picket fence, people carrier, labrador etc... What was once regarded as strange doesn't even raise an eyebrow now
4. adult children won't thank you for sacrificing your life and your happiness for them. They will feel guilty, confused and resentful that you have martyred yourself.

Actually I know many people who know that their parents were not particularly happy in their marriages but who stayed in them for the sake of the kids or for social reasons as their used to be a stigma attached to a broken marriage, and they do not feel guilt or confused at all, in fact they feel grateful that their parents did what they did, and thereby gave them a stable upbringing, and certainly the last thing they feel to their parents is resentment, in fact they admire their parents for their seflessness and stoicism.

My parents did this. The atmosphere at home was very unhappy, a lot of the time.

It doesn't help kids to grow up in a house where the adults are in a dysfunctional relationship (which is what it would be if you are just staying together for the kids) or in an unhappy atmosphere.

If you feel you can genuinely co-parent without any resentment etc, that's fine, but be careful.

I personally wish my parents had split up a lot sooner than they eventually did.

"A child?s performance at secondary school, self esteem and well being as an adult is linked especially to the father?s input. Children, whose parents separate are 50% more likely to fail at school, suffer behavioural difficulties, anxiety or depression."

"So to reduce the level of conflict in family life, parents must give more priority to their relationship. This would do more for children than anything else."

Where did they get this from?

Parents should:

• Make a long term commitment to each other.
• Be fully informed about what is involved before their child is born.
• Love their children, each other and establish boundaries for children. .
• Help children develop spiritual qualities.

Says who??????? Who has the right to say 'parents should' in this context?

My parents are still together, despite creating a hellish atmosphere to grow up in. I longed for them to separate, just to be free of the relentless bullying and violence.

If you do nothing about your situation, it will not improve and you may well become bitter and resentful and terribly terribly lonely. Please remember that life now is not what it will become.

Would couple councelling help? It may help sort out what needs to be sorted out if you do decide to separate.

Oh it's a hard one.

My parents had a long and unhappy marriage - so I it was unpleasant growing up in that atmosphere and horrible when they finally decided to pull the rug out - in my 20's about 3 months after I graduated.Better had they done it before.

My dh grew up in what that report suggests (ie putting others before yourself) - you have to watch this as it can also be self serving. DH father very abusive and mil put up with it - dh also abusive to his kids - not nice. FIL had another woman for 20 years and for the last 10 years lived with her. My dh's adult life has been consumed with supporting his martyr mother who refused to divorce fil.

That's not nice either.

BTW what's spiritual guidance - do they mean moral guidance?

I don't know the answer - I'm in the same position as you I'm afraid.

CSB,

Staying together for the sake of the children is rarely, if ever, a good idea for the reasons already stated. Your children will not thank you for remaining within a loveless relationship long term because of them. They could well turn around and say something to the effect of, "you silly moo, you should have left him years ago".

My friend's relationship with her H is on the skids but they are currently together.
It is not doing their child any good; she has and continues to pick up on the adults underlying tension between them. That is nnot something that a six year old should be experiencing to my mind.

Better off apart and happier than to be together and miserable is my personal view.
Also by remaining with this man if you choose to do so, you are actually stopping yourself from eventually finding someone new.

It is difficult to comment; on the one hand I agree that people are becoming more selfish and less inclined to deal with periods of boredom and irritation with a partner, which surely are common to all relationships at some point.

On the other hand, staying in a relationship with someone that you do not love, does not love you for 'the sake of the children' must run a pretty big risk of teaching your children something very damaging about relationships and how men and women treat each other.

I think it is hard to live with someone else and if you don't love each other, can you still like and respect each other, treat each other kindly, show humour, enjoy family times together? I think that is very unlikely.

But what have you done to try and see if you can make things work? If you try therapy and you still aren't happy at least you can think later on that you did all you could.

Captain: in your post you talk about a staying together scenario in which you and DH are friends. Is that how you would see yourself now?

Because if so, I would urge you to try sticking it out. The Children's Society report might not be popular with everyone, but should not be ignored. Your children are very young, and are at that age when they drain your energy and attention so your marriage can go onto autopilot with you barely noticing.

Unless there are other issues which you have not mentioned, how do you feel about the idea of sticking it out? Could you try it, for another 6mths or year? You could use that time to work on your marriage; and how you feel about the approaching "deadline" might in itself reveal the true path for you.

And how far is DH aware of your thoughts?

Captain

If you have a reasonable relationship it's doable I suppose but you might not have any other partner interest now but you might in the future and how would that work?

Drifting can be done but not indefinately.

I'd say that if you want to stay together for the kids it really has to work for the kids (it often doesn't really) and what kids want is a home where there is mutual respect and friendship and adults who set a good example.

Thanks for the posts.

Yes Onimolap - I would describe us as friends. I wouldn't say we have fallen out of love because I am realising that I never loved him - which sounds awful I know. Not sure how it for him. He is a generally happy-go-lucky sort and really accepts things are not perfect .
I still think we want similar things for us and our children . I have no interest in having another partner in my life or that of my children. I think my husband is a good Dad although we often disagree on how to approach parenting.
I don't want to separate to pursue ' selfish interests' I am just concerned that the 'lack of love' may become more difficult to disguise and the things that get normal couples through difficulties in life may be lacking and the cracks will begin to show.
Not sure that makes any sense at all.

CaptainSquidBones: You say 'you never loved him'. I think that's very sad but it does happen. It certainly does not sound awful. As I said, it does happen, people form relationships for all sorts of reasons (some perfectly valid) but not based on love.

The question then becomes, as you rightly say, whether the lack of love is an issue for you. Personally I believe that strong love is the cement for any relationship. Relationships are difficult to sustain in the best of circumstances. If you don't love your partner then it's hard to stay the course, if not impossible. It can lead to frustration, resentment etc: not a good environment for you & your DP let alone your children.

You say: 'you have no interest in having another partner in your life'. Why is that, could I ask (if of course it's something you want to discuss). Having a partner who you love deeply (& I'm not talking merely of sexual love here) is not only a great joy but, in my opinion, a prerequisite for a relationship that has a chance to work long-term.

Captain-
If you "never loved him", that means that you didn't love him when you decided to start a relationship with him.
If you "never loved him", that means you didn't love him when you decided to start a family with him.

I think the phrase 'going into something with your eyes wide open' fits this situation.
You made a commitment, and it doesn't sound as though he has behaved in a manner which cancels said commitment.
Your commitment was not just to him, but to yourself and, most importantly, to your children BEFORE they were born.
I recognise how deeply unfashionable responsibility and commitments are nowadays, but roll your sleeves up and work at it!

That's not always possible Arfarfa. There is a spectrum of misery and incompatibility and it is naive, unrealistic and if you were working in a professional capacity giving this advice, I would say dangerous to blythely advise somebody who is miserable to 'roll up their sleeves and work at it'.

I tried that approach for years and only left when I realised that my children were nervous wrecks. My dc1 had regressed to wetting her knickers. Two short weeks away from the tense, fraught atmosphere she had stopped.

There is a scale, but to basically advise that you one must lie in the bed one made is awful. Life is too short. You can only be reasonable, kind, rational, generous for one person, yourself. You can never make somebody else meet you in the middle and I guess that's a knowledge that (for some people) is hard to visualise when they have a rational, reasonable, decent partner..

Arfarfa, what on earth do you mean?!

People go into relationships without loving their partner for all sorts of reasons; due to weakness, lack of confidence, hope that 'it'll get better', a false belief that they do in fact love this person (which quickly changes)...the list is endless!! Your attitude is completely mono-dimensional & denies any complexity to the situation!

You also assume that since Captain made a choice at one point in her life (even if, for argument's sake, she was completely aware of the consequences of her choice) she is not entitled to change her mind!

Can I ask, where on earth are you basing these views?!

I didn't love my ex either, but I met him after ending a physically abusive relationship and I naively thought that all the good things about the relationship would be enough for us to live happily together. I knew him for two years before we married, but it went wrong very quickly and I stayed for the DC for a long time.

Captain, your DC's dad sounds a lot nicer than mine (happy-go-lucky is the last word I would use!) which might mean that you can sustain living together for longer. I still think it will end in the same way though - losing respect for each other, irritation, resentment, anger, despair. When those build up, and your children are old enough to notice how you behave towards each other, you are better off apart.

My husband is a lovely person ; he has his flaws like the rest of us.

I can't really justify why I entered into a life with someone else when I didn't love them. Life was easy then - good money no strings no childeren so I suppose you go with the flow. We travelled a lot and enjoyed life.

Now things are tougher I suppose this is the test - and I now realise what it may mean to love someone and enjoy being with them. I feel nothing and I am not sure whether I feel that way because I don't love him or because I can't love anyone.

I look at people who appear to lvoe their partners and relaise the difference .

My parents separate when I was 5. My mother moved, with me, to another continent. I can't actually say that I remember any of this as being particularly traumatic. I just accepted it as small children do.

Nearly 2 years later, she was pressurised into taking my father back and he moved to live with us. He is a nice man, just not the right one for my mother. I can categorically say both she and I would have been happier if they had not got back together and the next 15 years of chronic unhappiness could have been avoided. My father may even have managed to make a new life for himself and I might have a better relationship with him.

They divorced as soon as I left home. I was not particularly happy at having been the indirect cause of so much mutual unhappiness.