Do women trade sex for love?

[rednosedays]

Okay I am starting a new thread as I did not want to hijack NJ's thread with discussions about rape and there were responses from a couple of people that I wanted to reply to.

I suggested that without a little bit of manipulation or coercion teenage boys would find it quite difficult to get laid. At least that was how things were way back when I was a teenager but perhaps things have changed.

In my mind I was thinking along the lines of: I will always respect you/I really love you/You are gorgeous/You are the only person for me etc which, in my very humble opinion (but perhaps I am just old and cynical or got it all wrong) were used by members of the male sex in order to get into a female's knickers. I KNOW women can do these types of things to, but in my humble opinion, it was more difficult for a teenage boy to get laid than vice versa.

The female, being susceptible to flattery and (hopefully) fancying the boy (and maybe hoping that he would fall in love with her or whatever) would agree to sex even though there were risk factors eg: she might get pregnant/he might have been lying about how he felt just to get her into bed/he might go around telling all his friends that she was an easy lay etc etc. She might genuinely have feelings for him whereas he might just be pretending.

Okay I was a teenager quite a long time ago and hopefully things have changed (but judging from the discussions that I have heard from my teenagers and their friends they have not changed THAT much).

Just want people's thoughts on this.

I have never read a "romance novel" in my life

And I very rarely refer to the relationship I have with my DH (on here), mainly because it is a good one and I don't think we normally post when things are fine

the ideas you get from the relationship threads are skewed by that fact

only occasionally do we have a "my DP is fab because..." topic

Phew - red, I am so glad you made the comment about work as for one horrible moment it dawned on me that you could be a teacher and that is why you are posting on MN at the moment - school holidays.

The reason women are fussier- looking at this ins a anthroplogic way- is that they need someone ( man) to stick around for 2 years until the baby is weaned. The men go out of the cave and bring back food and the women stay at homemaking clothes out of sabre tooth tiger skins.

ARGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

This makes NO fucking sense. Do you think that back in "caveman days" (which don't exist, by the way) people lived in individual family units? Mother/father/baby? In, what, little tiny caves with roses around the door?

They didn't. Men have never stuck around until the baby is weaned, that's why most societies are organised as communities with shared resources, shared childrearing and shared food preparation. If you're a breastfeeding mother, you don't need a man to stick around, you just need to live in a community with pooled resources. This is really, really fucking obvious.

And women have always gathered and prepared most of the food. In the primitive societies you're talking about, female labour provided about 80% of calories. This is all really, really easily sourced material.

We all do know that the 1950s was a historical blip, right? And that a psuedo-scientific theory which explains why it was the only right and proper and inevitable societal structure ever is therefore necessarily extremely suspect? Yes?

We do all know that, right?

I have never traded sex for love, and would never want to.
That said, my earning power has always been equal to or above that of the average male earner, so I have never needed a partner to provide for me.

I have the self-belief to sleep with those I choose, not those who ask though.

I had my first sex aged 14 with my amazing first boyfriend. He was a musician, not very good-looking but fascinating, obsessed with me as I was him and we had a very emo-ish and passionate relationship.

When I told my mum we'd had sex, she was horrified, which surprised me. She tried to tell me that he'd obviously manipulated me into it, and had only been so nice to me because 'like all teenage boys, he is only after one thing'.

This had a big impact on how I saw him and his motivations, I slowly lost my trust in him and in subsequent boyfriends.

I loved sex then as I love it now, and it pisses me off that we as women are taught from a young age that sex is for and about men. Men are taught the same thing, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, making men feel biologically justified in using sex to make them feel powerful and women feel either ashamed for enjoying it, or accepting of abuse.

Tortoise - you are really quite wonderful!

I second that, FWS

Awww, shucks.

Dogfish
Today, thankfully, women have better economic opportunities than before but they are still much more likely than men to try to get some additional reward for sex.

I don't doubt that on average and particularly later in life, female sex drive does change pace with male sexuality. I don't think, however, that women have sex 'for additional reward' in contrast to men. It's just that socially, men and women are treated very differently and judged differently, even today, when they have sex. Women don't necessarily get a choice in the matter. Women are still viewed to be giving something valuable away when they have sex. Women 'giving' sex is a more precious commodity, if you like, so women who 'give' sex freely are viewed badly, as having thrown away something valuable out of lack of self-esteem or poor judgement or plain idiocy or whatever. Men who 'give' sex freely are viewed positively as being confident and in control.

You could go into a whole deconstructivist discourse thingy about why this is but it is the way it is. It really annoys me when people talk about 'women using sex for money / gifts' as that implies that women are setting things up that way. They're just responding to incentives. Society views their sex drive differently so they're not encouraged to be free, even now 40+ years after feminism went mainstream. Men fuel this as much as women as they want a woman who is a precious commodity, not a skank freely available. I always think the classic example of this is men who go to prostitutes / strippers. I would bet 99% of the guys who do this would die rather than marry or be in a relationship with a woman who worked in these trades. These men want to use these women but then have children / settle down with 'a nice girl'. I would have a lot more respect for men who use these services if they had the integrity to then follow through and either be untamed bachelors for life or settle down with a girl they meet who works in the trades they like to avail of e.g. because she has a great body or is good in bed. Using these women and then wanting to marry and settle down with the kind of girl who isn't 'cheap' is just hypocritical. But that's at the heart of why society treats male / female sexuality differently: it's largely driven by male hypocrisy the male need to ensure paternity and avoid women who make themselves too freely available, in society's view of things.

"This makes NO fucking sense. Do you think that back in "caveman days" (which don't exist, by the way) people lived in individual family units? Mother/father/baby? In, what, little tiny caves with roses around the door?"

Thankyou for the much needed laugh in this thread

Interesting response from Inmyprime. In answer to the question about what I wanted to achieve from this thread. Initially I just didn't want to hijack another thread as responses seem to be qoing off topic. However, I think that probably I am curious about how much attitudes have changed with regard to male/female sexuality. It is a subject that interests me but also I think I am motivated by trying to help my children make good choices in terms of long term partners - especially where children are involved.

I consider that my own parents made quite a mess of things and I really wanted to avoid history repeating itself. I think I have made fewer mistakes than they did (but also benefitted from a more liberal society) and I am hoping my children will be happy and successful in their relationships. Thre is so much heartache involved when things go pear-shaped especially when children are involved.

So I am curious - how much have things really changed, what are our children going to have to deal with in terms of gender stereotypes and the battle of the sexes etc?

Linden - tut, tut! I am not going to respond to little digs so you will have to get your kicks elsewhere. Believe me I have had quite enough pain and upset in my life to need any more at all. Sorry!!

Thinking back almost 30 years to when we were 16 years old, I wanted sex every bit as much as DH did, we had no idea that we would spend the rest of our lives together, we just two teenagers with rampaging hormones.
I remember my bastard creep brother in law (my sister's abusive husband) telling me I was a slut for going on the pill and that my boyfriend (DH) wouldn't stick around now he'd got what he wanted - he wasn't invited to our wedding.
Those attitudes only persist in that kind of twisted mind.

Hi, my name is CatPower, I'm in my mid/late 20's and I love sex, and have done since I lost my virginity at 16. Sex isn't a bargaining tool because I have self-respect. When DP and I have sex, we do it because we love each other, not because I've "given in" because he's had a tough day at work/I want him to treat me to something pretty.

Enjoyment of sex for the act itself (and not in the hope of conceiving) is not exclusive to those with XY chromosomes.

That makes more sense rednosedays, I think that despite the stereotypes persisting, there has been a change in attitudes.

And I think that will continue if we all keep pushing for it.

"the male need to ensure paternity and avoid women who make themselves too freely available, in society's view of thing" yes historically most definitely the case. The cuckolded husband - the ultimate indiginity to end up bringing up another man's child so better to chose a woman who is "chaste".

Do you think this is why (puts on flak jacket and steel helmet) female infidelity has tended to be treated far more harshly than male infidelity? (And in my opinion, still is) again an example of persisting gender inequalities and how society views male/female sexuality differently?

'I suggested that without a little bit of manipulation or coercion teenage boys would find it quite difficult to get laid.' - Well red you are not above having digs yourself - do you not consider this an insult?

I dunno Linden, but do you not think that there is still some mileage in the stereotype that males have to work a little bit harder in order to attract a female? eg: get your coat Sheila you've pulled won't necessarily do the job?

just going on the original post,isn't or shouldn't the point be to challenge these ridiculous outdated ideas? To educate our sons and our daughters? It seems to me to read that the op simply shrugs and accepts , hey, boys will be boys and girls will fall for it tosh.

what do you say to your teenagers op? do you teach them/have you taught them the right and proper way to treat other people?

Does that not depend on 'Sheila?'

• and by that I mean as well as.

'Even if there were no social expectations women would still be less interested in NSA sex and would still be more likely to seek some collateral benefit.'

Says who?

There seem to be two elements to this discussion.

Firstly, discerning whether or not women are collectively less interested in sex/expect something in addition to intimacy/sexual enjoyment/whatever anyone's reasons are for having sex.

Secondly, whether in society women's sexuality is viewed more negatively than that of their male counterparts, and how far both genders are a product of this attitude in their expectations or actions.

The first is, to put it eloquently, mostly bollocks IMO Different women, different views on sex. Whatever.

The second one is well worth a debate, esp if we are looking at how to alter it for future generations.

PP - I do challenge but I am shocked by how some of those attitudes can still prevail. Just look at some of the role models in the media - Victoria Beckham springs to mind.

TanteAC - I agree with your comments about female sexuality per se, if taken in isolation from other factors.

But when marriage or long term relationships involving children are concerned it all gets a bit more complicated. The best sex in the world is not going to make up for a man who is a crap father to your children, for instance (or at least not for me).

So many other factors come into play when children are involved in a relationship. For instance, if you were (say) a woman with a high sex drive finding herself married to a man who was no longer really interested. Would it be acceptable to leave an otherwise reasonably content domestic situation in order to pursue sexual satisfaction elsewhere? I still think that society tolerates men doing this (either with affairs or leaving for a newer model) more than women who, once they have children I think tend to put the children as the first priority rather than their sex lives.

Sorry probably hideous gender stereotyping but I think society is very, very harsh when it comes to female sexuality. Look at some of the postings on here when a married woman has a crush on someone (even if her husband is a shit). People tend to shove the knife in pretty deep. So where does this sit with female sexual emancipation? Just seem to be so many double standards operating and also so much hypocricy.

rnd, you said you posted out of concern over how to guide your children. I'm 55. The mistake my parents made (well, one amongst many) was to instil in me the message that Sex Is Very Precious and I should only Do It with Someone I Really Loved. Which is all well and good, appropriate to the 1970s, but they overdid it. As a result, I didn't have sex with my lovely boyfriend at 17 and did have my first penetrative sex with a rapist at 20.

I very much like what seems to be the emphasis in current sex education - that sex is a nice bonding exercise, and must be safe - though I gather there's too much emphasis on risk factors, so maybe it hasn't really changed after all.

However, given your extraordinarily old-fashioned, patriarchal & misanthropic views on the topic, I'm not sure you will be able to educate your young adults into a healthy, well-balanced, respectful sex life :(

Wrt the Facebook episode - the girl must realise the boy's a plonker? A hurtful experience to be sure (he betrayed her trust), but not a shaming one; the shamed party here is the boy. I imagine their friends spotted that very quickly.