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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

My brother

4 replies

YunoYurbubson · 25/07/2010 11:28

Argh. I am trying to write about a specific issue I am having with my brother, but it keeps turning into a huge ranty essay about how massively annoying he is.

Right.

Brother is in 30s. He has his first serious girlfriend. They are moving in together. I am thrilled for him, and for them. She is lovely, and an old friend of mine.

Brother is a very difficult man. He is lazy, selfish, self serving, dishonest and uncompromising. He has had every opportunity in the world, yet somehow feels hard done by, and as though no one respects him enough (they don't but this is because he is a selfish arse, not because of some sort of conspiracy). But the thing is, I love him, and I like him too. At least I thought I did. I am so muddled.

Until recently I would have (and often did) describe him as one of my best friends. We know each other so well.

I have been defending him for years, his staunchest fan. I have given him chance after chance after chance, and always made excuses, never believed he really was that bad. I had him pegged as a lovable rogue, rather than a total arsehole.

Recently we had a row. We never ever row. This is the first time we have fallen out since we were children. It was a big deal, but the row was about something quite silly really.

Now we've both been sulking for the past couple of months, I have had a little space to have a think. I have realised what a horrid person he can be at times. I have realised that the reason he and I have a strong relationship is because I tread on eggshells so as not to upset him. I have also noticed that our lovely long chats are always about him, and he is not interested in anything I have been doing. I feel as though I can suddenly see him for what he is.

So, I am thinking that maybe I can't be bothered to renew our friendship. But...

Well, he is my adored little brother and I feel terribly sad that I don't have him any more. I miss him. More than miss him.

Also, he is quite convinced that the reason I am "being arsey" is because I am jealous of his girlfriend, and that I don't approve of their relationship. I have truly examined my motives from every angle and I really don't think I am jealous. I have wanted him to have someone for years, and I really like her.

I don't know why he is so defensive about her. I knew he was feeling exposed so I went out of my way to be warm and natural and reassuring and cool about it. I feel as though it has all been thrown back in my face.

I want to change how our relationship works, but I don't know how to do this.

Oh I know this is long and rambly. I'm going to post it anyway.

OP posts:
Wordweaver · 25/07/2010 14:40

I think there are a lot of things going on in your post and in your thoughts, and probably it has done you good to have some time to think. Perhaps you need more. Perhaps you should write some more - for yourself.

My main thought after reading is that the healthiest way of loving someone is to love them in full knowledge of their personality, their weaknesses, their difficult traits. You have had a shock to your system, but it's a good shock. You are seeing clearly.

That doesn't mean that you can't love him or spend time with him. But perhaps for your sake you need to tell him how you feel - that you will always love him, but you can't respect the way he behaves/treats others. Begin a new relationship with him - one where you can be open with him about your feelings. It sounds as if you felt quite stifled.

There are of course family relationships that break down completely and it is impossible to know from what you've said whether your relationship with him is worth fighting for. You said 'I want to change how our relationship works.' If I were you, I would use that clearly put and positive statement to use. Utilise it as a stepping stone. Write it down step by step, to help you clarify your thoughts. For example:

'I want to change how our relationship works.'

Define your terms.
How has it worked in the past?
Why?
Why do you want to change how the relationship works?
What specifically do you want to change?
Can you specify how you would like things to be?
Take each thing one at a time and try to imagine one way that could be achieved.

You say that he is your adored brother and you love him.

If you are to have a relationship with him, to be healthy and adult it has to be with who he IS, not who you want him to be.

Can you accept who he is?
What will be the main sticking points?
Can you avoid those areas of discussion?
Can you think of some stock phrases that might be used if certain things come up?

Why is it difficult for you to have a relationship with him as he is?

Is it possible that because you love him, you feel that you can see what is best for him, what is right and wrong, wise and foolish? Do you cause yourself pain and upset by trying to help him/change him, advise him/steer him?

Perhaps to change your relationship with him you have to change the way YOU think. Accept that he has a right to believe what he wants to believe, act how he wants to act. The responsibility starts and ends with him.

Believe me, I know how hard this is to achieve in reality. I have a similar relationship with my stepfather, and every time I see him I have to remind myself that just because the way he sees things is different from me, doesn't mean I can or should try to change them. It is enough for me to say ONCE 'I don't see it like that so we will have to agree to differ.' I don't have to keep arguing my point.

Sorry, this has turned into an epic reply! But I think there is a lot for you to consider in this situation, and it may be a great opportunity for you to make some chnges.

Ultimately you can't change him or his thoughts or his behaviour - only he can do that. What you CAN change is your reactions to him, your way of interacting with him.

Easier said than done, I know. It takes work and time, and you will still get upset along the way. But in my opinion the things that are really worth doing do take time and effort. There's no quick fix.

YunoYurbubson · 25/07/2010 16:48

Wordweaver, thank you so much for your reply.

You are right, writing about this is cathartic. It is good to get it pinned down instead of whirling around in my head. Although I feel horribly disloyal posting about him - I nearly reported my OP as soon as I posted it.

You are also spot on that I think I know what is best for him. I made a very consious decision a couple of years ago NOT to ever say if I thought his choices seemed odd to me, and I have stuck to that. The trouble is, he makes such bloody awful decisions. He gave up his job with nothing to go to. He got massively in to debt buying dvd collections. He bought a completely clapped out sports car when still unemployed and owing masses of money to family members and the bank. He borrowed god knows how much money from my (state pension) granny and never paid her back. He was saving to go back to college, but then spent the money on a huge skull tattoo on his arms and neck instead. He decided to stretch his earlobes, tribal style, but didn't read any information, just did it himself and got it wrong. So, for the last few years he has been a car crash tbh, and I have had a choice of offering my opinion and advice and being shouted at and falling out, however tactfully I put things, or just watching in horror and saying "great stuff bro!"

It has made our relationship so false but I don't think he knows that. He thinks that at least I don't get at him like everyone else does. I say everyone else, but that doesn't include our parents who absolutely worship him, do everything for him, and who think he does no wrong.

My next thought was "so, he's a bit of an idiot, but he's not a bad person" but actually I think he is a bad person. He treated my Granny very badly. At least I think he did - she is quite manipulative too and I think she has lied to me about how bad he has been.

And if I try and get any of this straight with anyone they will tell me to piss off and stop being such a fussy old aunty. So perhaps I won't bother.

Which leaves me where I started - sad to have lost my brother.

I am feeling it particularly at the moment because circumstances have conspired to remove a lot of people from my daily life recently, so I am a bit lonely and I miss picking up the phone to have a giggle and a catch up with him.

I am going to work through your questions myself and answer them honestly, and see how I feel at the end of them.

Thanks again for replying.

OP posts:
Wordweaver · 25/07/2010 17:53

I'm so sorry, it sounds like a very painful situation to be in, and I don't wonder that you feel sad and helpless with regard to it. I think it helps enormously when you have a third party who knows the person and with whom you can talk things through. You are going through a really tough time.

I have a few thoughts about what you said, which may or may not resonate with you - please don't think I am trying to say I know how you feel or what is the right decision - they are just musings.

You mentioned two choices - either offering your opinion and being shouted at, or effectively saying 'great stuff bro' by keeping quiet.

I do think that there is a third option, which is to tell him that you don't admire his decisions without offering advice as to what he should be doing.

You can say that you don't admire someone's behaviour. You can say that you are there for them if they want to talk something over. That's not keeping silent, but neither is it telling them that you know best, which is annoying for all of us, especially when we know it's true!

Is there an element of your parents spoiling him here? I wonder if maybe, from what he said, he feels as if people are always criticising his actions/decisions AFTER he has done/made them. Perhaps a slightly spoiled, younger child is in danger of feeling as if their decisions as an adult are never taken seriously? He sounds very defensive.

I'm not defending his decisions, they sound thoughtless and misguided. But from his pov, it must be hard to always hear people telling you that what you've done is silly, especially when it's something you can't go back on, like a tattoo.

Sometimes we get angriest when others hit closest to the mark - is he thinking badly of himself, and therefore getting angrier because it's too close to the bone?

I'm just trying to think of ways in which you can re-establish a relationship with him. Ultimately if you are going to, you have to find some mechanisms for living alongside his behaviour.

Reading through your list of his actions, what I hear is the behaviour of a CHILD. Lack of financial wisdom, desire to have his wishes fulfilled instantly, temper tantrums if challenged.

Actually, by telling someone what to do, I think we can perpetuate a tendency in them to abdicate responsibility for their actions. They can effectively be saying 'well you should have helped me then'. He needs to be treated as an adult - he has to live with his choices.

I suppose I mean that with the tattoo for example, maybe he'll be expecting to hear criticism about it and the source of the money. If what he actually hears is 'Oh, did you? Are you happy with it?' - that's a far cry from someone a) berating him or b) saying how lovely the tattoo looks.

You don't have to give a negative or a positive reaction instantly - you can bat it back to him with a question.

(By the way, I am not saying I think that's how you reacted to the tattoo, I was just trying to think of a practical example of what I meant.)

It sounds as if you feel a sense of responsibility towards him that's kind of parental.
You're not your brother's parent.
You're not your grandmother's parent.

If this man were not your brother but just a friend, how would you have behaved differently?

As adults, we have to accept that sometimes people won't agree with the choices we make.
He has to accept that you don't admire some of his choices - that's your prerogative - but he doesn't have to accept that you know better than him.

Actually talking to him about all this will be really tough and I think you'll need to really get your thoughts clear before you do. Also, perhaps accept that whatever you say to him may or may not be inwardly digested by him - the important thing is you saying it to him, not what he does with that information.

One of the difficulties I have in my relationship with my stepfather is that he will nod and listen when we are talking about feelings/problems, and I have turned myself inside out trying to get him to see that he just needs to realise I'm no longer 12/I have a brain of my own/the things he says are hurtful. Several times I have achieved what I thought was common ground, only to be back to square one next time.

I am now at a point, which is what I guess I mean about your brother, of saying something to him ONCE, stating it fairly and unemotionally, and if necessary adding that we have to agree to disagree. Then, if and when that subject arises again, I just say, 'Well, this is an area we can't agree on isn't it, so there's nothing more to say. I don't want to fall out with you.' I realise that what matters is that I have said how I see things - if he chooses to ignore that, it's up to him. I can't control his thought processes and I wouldn't want to!

It depends on the relationship you think you can have with him. If you can't lay everything out on the table and talk it over until you both agree, then perhaps either you accept that's how things are and you always have a bit of an undercurrent, or you simply break contact.

My choice in this situation - for the time being - is to avoid the impossible areas of conversation. It's not an ideal solution and it's not one I feel massively happy about, but I am as sure as I can be that it is a choice between that and cutting off from him altogether. Right now, for many reasons, I have chosen to go for the latter. Next month, next year, it could all change and I may have to reassess.

I am sure it will blow up at some point. But there are times when it's right to push for change, and times when it isn't.

You have possibly created a positive time for change in your relationship with your brother. I think you need to do whatever you can to make that a positive experience FOR YOU.

Have you thought about seeing a counsellor specifically about this? A couple of sessions talking to someone who is there totally for you can reveal things to yourself that you hadn't clearly realised.

Also have a look on Amazon for books that deal with difficult family relationships - or search these forums. It may help to see others' experiences and what they suggest.

It's so hard, and I do empathise. Good luck.

Wordweaver · 25/07/2010 17:55

Oops, I meant to say I HAVEN'T chosen to go for the latter!

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