we have a baby + he wants commitment + us 2 move across the country for his career yet he won't marry me...opinions?

[avariceandlatinos]

Please let me know if i'm being unfair to my partner or not. I'd really like somebodies opinion on this because the issue is actually causing problems in the relationship (by making me distant and confused). My partner and I have a child, he actually said to me we should get married, when i said that's a very big commitment I would only make once and not with just anyone, he pointed out (i'm glad) that it's a less of a big commitment than raising a child together therefore, why not? Yet the moment i agreed this was true and that i was no longer so opposed to the idea, he seemed to back off.
He's never given me a ring or popped the question. We've been together 7 years. He is obsessed with bettering our financial situation before getting married despite the fact i would never spend much on 'one day' let along want a diamond ring, i'd be happy with hulahoop, it's the thought that counts (as you can imagine he didn't respond well to an unplanned baby before he was born and the bond kicked in.) and yet thinks nothing of spending 1,000s on pointless gadgets. He knows i'm not in it for the money, i pay half of everything, we live together. i want a secure base to build a family, statistically only 3% of cohabiting couples remain together by the time their child is 16 (24% by the time the child is 5) - this suggests that most marry, if they don't marry evidently they weren't that commited. Which makes me wonder, am i trying to build a secure base for our child with a man who isn't as commited as he professes? I will not break up with him over this, that would be foolish. However what i can do is limit the potential damages of building a life together on weak foundations. Secondly he insists that we move together to a part of the country where he has found a job, which means i won't have access to grandparental childcare = i won't be able to happily work full time = i'll no longer be able to pay 50/50 yet it doesn't bother him that in this situation i will be financially disadvantaged and disadvantaged in my career progression, and that by moving into a property he effectively has sole ownership of, our son and i will be made homeless if for whatever reason we break up, and i have no finances to fall back on. I've told him i'm happy to live on different sides of the country if he won't compromise by getting a job somewhere we can both work full time etc, and meet up at weekends (i'm not really but i won't compromise myself for his career ambitions without evidence of a commitment on his behalf). To be honest i feel taken advantage of. I love him, but i'm a practical woman. Also, I haven't told him this is about the marriage issue, because i don't want to force him, i want it to be a real heartfelt commitment, but i'm not going to be taken advantage of to be 'dropped' when his career finally does take off. I get the feeling he doesn't understand what seems to me a massive sacrifice and not sort of family i want for my son.

Don't for fuck's sake have a child without getting married. Apologies to everyone who has done this, it's nothing personal. I don't buy all that marriage makes it special bullshit, but the legal facts are that if you aren't married your relationship is meaningless in the eyes of the law. I think the standard CSA payment which you would get in the event of a breakup is 15% of his salary (happy for anyone to correct me) which, frankly, is gnats' piss for most people. So you are relying very heavily on his goodwill, especially if you intend to put your career on the back burner for a while, and it makes you very vulnerable.

I would only do it if I was very well off myself, and could support me + baby comfortably by myself.

I

You've been tgether for 7 years, have a child and live together. You are worried that if his career takes off you will be dropped - will getting married really make you feel more secure?

If you really do want to get married you need to discuss it with him.

Loosing your fincial independence and your family living close to you is another matter and a very hard choice to make.

DOn't look at the statistics for co-habiting couples/marriage couples look at your won relationship and how you feel that will progress.

The marriage bit is not actually the real issue here because:

a) if you split up your child is entitled to the same amount of maintenance from him whether you are married or not
b) he can still fuck off and leave when his career takes off whether or not you are married
c) even if you get married your agreeing to the situation above still places you in a situation where you are too dependant on him

now of course marriages has its advantages etc and if it is important to you fair enough but

You are right not to want to move across the country with him. DO NOT move into a house that is "his" alone. Do NOT let him take you away from your family and support networks, DO NOT allow your income and independence to be cut in order to advance HIS career.

Make him demonstrate his commitment to you now - you need his agreement that the house is both of yours as in your name on the deeds or whatever, that your career and independence will be fully accommodated.

Just read all the posts on here from SAHMS with husbands and partners who earn all the money and consider it is all "theirs" and keep the houses solely in their names. These women leave themselves without a leg to stand on when things go tits up.

Never do that to yourself. Always make sure that you can manage without him if you have to. If you don't you will regret it.

It is ok to make it a deal breaker. That is not a superficial, off the cuff reaction to his effectively removing all your security (family support/job/financial independence/self-esteem/friends) by moving.

I feel making a decision based on percentages of studies is kind of off the mark, imho. Sod the studies; it is what you feel about your circumstances that matters. You might be looking for justification for creating your boundary, that's ok.

You wrote:
"...but i'm not going to be taken advantage of to be 'dropped' when his career finally does take off."

This, to me, indicates that you feel that he is dismissive towards you. It is very good that you have tuned into this and are paying attention to it. I think it is this sort of 'gut' feeling that represents the pure truth of the situation. Spending thousands on gadgets when professing to be obsessed with bettering your financial situation does not compute. I think this is more of him being dismissive of you. Marriage is not his priority; gadgets are.

I do think it would be a mistake for you to go without marriage.

He is moving. That is action by him. You have a boundary that you do not want to cross (giving up everything ). I'd say go ahead and make the statement that you won't (note: not that you don't want to...that you will not do it) move without marriage; then the ball is back in his court. Then he can make it or break it.

You wrote: "but i won't compromise myself for his career ambitions without evidence of a commitment on his behalf". That is very well stated, however, imho you need more than just the 'evidence of'...you need nothing less than the actual commitment at this point. 'Evidence of' has been given in that he didn't exit when the lo was born.

avariceandlatinos where do you get those 'statistics' about how many couples do not stay together?

Yes, in complete agreement with MsB, commitment is proven by the actions beyond the marriage certificate.

Will a car be in your name?
Will he fund a credit card in your name so you will have a good credit standing?
Is your name also on the house papers?
Is he ok with you having a separate savings account in addition to your joint accounts?

Also, has he advanced much in the past 7 years? That might be an indication of the future as well.

It is good to take the time to think long and hard about it. Good Luck.

'I will not break up with him over this, that would be foolish. '

You'd be foolish to move OR marry someone this controlling, selfish and inconsiderate.

It's all about him. He doesn't seem to really consider your own needs and feelings worth of thought, much less priority.

'I get the feeling he doesn't understand what seems to me a massive sacrifice and not sort of family i want for my son.'

You think right. Because that would require being mature, having empathy and realising that it's not all about him anymore.

I wouldn't give this man the time of day, much less my financial and emotional security.

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It sounds to me as though he wants everything on his own terms. You get to make the sacrifices while he gets the rewards.

I came back to say again - listen to your instincts here OP - you sound like you are already wise to the situation.

Don't suppress your inner voice and go along with his wishes against your better judgement. If he loved you he would respect your desire for independence and be willing to consider your interests as well as his own.

good point - did he take the job without even dicussing it with you?

I'd be letting him go on his own if he did. It augurs very badly for your future with him.

You'll get more support staying where you are.

he did discuss it with me, he said he wouldn't take the job if i didn't want him to. I said (just to see how he really felt) well i think perhaps you should consider not doing so then, and his reply was that he was definitly going to take the job because we didnt know what the public sector job markets would be like - i.e my career stability, and he'd be earning more than me which means his career in real terms is worth more. He has a fair point. I don't know whether i'm being unreasonable by being concerned about possible sacrifices, he seems to think i'm overly concerned about seperating, which i guess i am, but it's also my career and my support networks as well as the question of whether his career comes before his family or for his family, if it's for his family (the long term) marriage should not seem so off the cards?

He did not support me during the pregnancy. He re-entered the picture later and is a very good father to our son now however, very involved.

My statistics were from the telegraph, that's not how many couples who stayed together, but how many couples stayed together who didn't marry. by the time a child is 5, 74% of couples who were cohabiting are still together, of those, 4/5ths are married. But yes, stats don't account for a sample size of 1.

I think if marriage is off the cards for him, because he's not ready, and because i believe marriage is principaly somehing both parties should want to do and be based on love although it does have certain legal obligations which, if you are commited to a life long relationship, shouldn't be so terrifying especially if it is his choice for me to minimise my career, not mine. I take on board what all have said and i will not make those sacrifices without reasonable assurances, after all, if we split it will be I who have to support our son primarily. I have discussed joint accounts and finances but that is off the cards for him. He will however have my name on the deeds if I wish.

I think your responses so far have been very helpful. I want a family together to work very much. I think that my discussing this issue with him is driving a wedge between us more to be honest though. I can't really do much else though can I? I've told him wht i want for our future, and that i want to have opportunities too, or if not, assurance that he has my interests at heart too.

We've not got anywhere with this though unfortunately. Looks like we are just going to split apart.

Why should he have all the benefits of marriage, ie trailing spouse, dependant on him entirely, and therefore on some level beholden to him, without doing any of the leg work.

I suppose you gave the baby his surname too didn't you?

(not judging, merely kicking myself for having done this... why oh why did I do that?)

DON'T ever allow yourself to be utterly cut off from everyone you know and care for, and that care for you.

If he DID take this job without discussing this with you it clearly demonstrates that he holds your opinion in very low regard, that your say holds nothing, and your situation, concerns, wants and desires are immaterial.

He is moving, YOU don't need to do a thing, HE has to win you round, by at least making the effort to make up what you stand to lose.. your freedom, your friends, your family, your support network...

FGS DON'T GIVE UP YOUR LIFE FOR A MAN, much less one that won't marry you.

Listen to your gut feeling, you are not happy about this and are seeking reassurance. Reassurance we don't seem able to give you. Reassurance you can't find in your heart either.

Either this bloke steps up to the plate, does the right thing, signs over half the property, funds a credit card/proper allowance, covers child care so you can work if you wish to, and does the decent thing and puts a ring on your finger.

Or he doesn't

If he doesn't please don't see your baby short, don't commit to a non-life like that. Not before making sure that you will have the safety, security and freedom to improve your own life in the new place.

If you are unsure about stuff now, when you are across the other side of the country, lonely, missing your old life, I swear, you'll take it out on your new life, and you will blame him.

Actually, whether you are married or not does make a big different if for some reason the relationship fails. The biggest difference is that if you are married if does not matter so much in whose name the property is. Also, if you are married you don't have to rely on the CSA - you can take things through the courts if you can't agree on the amount - and you can get a lot more than the CSA amount.

But as others have pointed out, I think the biggest thing here is that you should not lose your financial independence - you don't want to be in a situation where you move and leave your job, and then be stuck with no money of your own.

sorry xposted, not see, sell your baby short..

With the money/joint account off the cards ... WHY is that? what was his reason? I think your prognosis may be correct.

Hold firm, he could be bluffing you, don't negotiate on this... please?

We married when our DC1 was 9 monts old, I left for England leaving all my relatives behind. You English, in England, all your relatives here, you lucky woman.

As someone who has been there, the only thing I can tell you is... DON'T DO IT.

If you move, you will loose your economical independance and all your network of support who directly or indirectly are helping you raise a baby (friends, family or even neighbours).

Once you have lost your financial independence you loose a HUGE chunk of your freedom. Slowly expenses get to be vetted, and if you stop work for a while, the equality in the marriage may be affected. Further to it, many things you have in common may disappear. When I met my now ex, we both were at the same place in our careers, similar salaries, same sector, and pretty similar jobs, so we could talk all day long and still had something interesting left to be said. Once I was at home all the day, those things in common were gone. His career went up, mine was gone. At some point we realised we no longer had anything in common, things that were important for me were not for him and visceversa.

So we parted... now, I'm stuck in a place I never wanted to be in the first place, I can't move back either, courts preffer children to have contact with both parents even if the resident parent is practically isolated and poor. My H has had a fantastic career, and now has a salary near to the 6 figure mark, great holidays, fantastic food, all glittery and everything while DS and I have been surviving mostly of benefits for more than a year. We still have a roof over our heads, but only because at some point we married. Otherwise, DS and I would be struggling even more.

So, if I had to take the decision you are now taking again, I would stand my ground and say NO, even if I had a 2 ct diamond ring on my finger.

I can't imagine how a man can demand you to give up your friends, family, career, familiar places and routines to favour his career when he is not even willing to protect both you and your child with a legal agreement.

Not that the legal agreement is worth that much either...

DON'T MOVE like this OP!!

Tell him arrangements must be in place for your continued equal status in the relationship or you stay put.

Don't let him assume all the control - you actually hold more cards than he does if we are going to be blunt about it.

I'm wondering if you're talking yourself out of this relationship through fear that he will leave you high and dry... (understandable as he did exactly that during your pregnancy).

Has he said that he's changed his mind about marriage? If he hasn't the way I read it is that he was keen, you weren't and then when you came round he backed off. You now don't want to bring it up as you don't want to force him... Is there a chance that he felt exactly the same way when he talked you round? (ie that he didn't want to propose as he felt that he'd talked you in to it). Is it possible that you think less of yourself than he does and you're projecting that on to him? Is it possible that you're both talking around the real issue for fear of forcing the other one into something you're not convinced they want to do? I think it's OK to say "if we're talking about such a big move perhaps it's time to put marriage back on the table". I also think that as a man - he will have no idea you feel this way about marriage if you don't tell him... he could be perfectly happy to commit but be giving you time and waiting for your cue that you're ready and weren't just talked in to it.

Can I ask why you wouldn't be happy to work full time away from your family? NOT a criticism of a personal choice, but there are childcare options out there if you want to pursue a career of your own and maintain your independence. You could start part time, and then look for full time when you were settled and happy with the childcare. I don't think not having family close by needs to be a closed door to your career.

If he's happy to put your name on the deeds to the house it doesn't sound like he's afraid to make a long term commitment at all. (IME this is bigger than a proposal in blokeland)... good luck x

He sounds extraordinarily manipulative to me. But then, I am an old cynic.

He mentions marriage when you're not keen, so you have it in your mind that he's willing to commit; but when you're willing to do it, suddenly it sort of isn't happening. He assures you he won't take the job if you are against it, but when you express reservations he says he is going to take it, for all sorts of rational reasons of course, but nevertheless, somehow your wishes got edged out. Now he says he will put your name on the deeds if that's what you want, but are you holding your breath until he actually gets around to it? The fact that he won't even consider joint finances is also a matter of concern. By no means all couples do have a joint account, but you would normally expect to talk it through and decide what works for both of you, and some sort of joint arrangement makes a lot of sense. For you though, about to give up your financial security, this is not an option.

Basically it sounds like he's quite happy to discuss all sorts of things with you, as long as it doesn't make any real difference to what he's decided to do. I'd worry.