Archers thread #183: The Scorekeeper's Apprentice. Discuss The Archers here.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Thank you, @PseudoBadger, for kicking off this long, long series of Archers threads.

All views on The Archers welcome here! New blood welcomed, and of course we are always delighted to welcome back former or occasional listeners/posters. We don't all agree on all points, although we do mostly try to be civil about it. Most of us are posting tongue in cheek a lot of the time, so don't worry about revealing that you'd like to share a hot tub with Mucky Mick, or other unusual views.

Spoilers: not on this thread, please! We don't wait for the omnibus to discuss the weeknight episodes, but we do try our best to avoid cross-contamination from https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/radio_addicts/4636789-the-archers-spoilers-thread-7-cant-wait-for-702pm-join-us-here, where spoilers are positively welcomed!

For newer listeners, lurkers or those who just have no idea what we're talking about, @DadDadDad has created this useful thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/radio_addicts/3557323-For-Archers-fans-a-guide-to-acronyms-on-the-long-running-discussion-threads-and-any-other-meta-thread-questions-you-may-have - BOOP point for him! (See thread for explanation.)

Credit for the title goes to @TottersBlankly who suggested it and @BeatriceBatchelor who coined this lovely phrase. (It's led me to take a look at the Wikipedia page for The Sorcerer's Apprentice. I had not known before that the animation in Fantasia that goes with the Dukas symphonic tone poem is more or less unadulterated Goethe, and the story goes back to ancient times. You learn something every day.)

At the end of the last thread, there was an apocalyptic tone as we were all bemoaning the lack of continuity and farming storylines (especially lambing, which used to be a big theme at this time of year). Are there any reasons to be cheerful? (Not just Part 3 - another reference for the older listeners here. ) Over to you!

Yes I’m sure Joy will have spent time on a psychiatric ward.
I feel I now understand her to an extent, but still feel v unsure about Rochelle’s story.

OMG the knot-in-stomach of being a horse owner around fireworks time...at least in this country (on the Continent), it's truly limited to one night/year, rather than any random time between Hallowe'en and Hogmanay, with random weddings thrown in! Still, there was a rota of liveries at the yard over night, ready to deal with issues/call the vet/go have a word with excessive neighbours. I think fireworks are gorgeous, but really don't belong in the countryside.

I honestly think they are shit

every year I watch the new year fireworks in London and could honestly have just watched the pre recorded from 5 years ago

all the pollution and the waste of money makes me feel a bit sick tbh

we had the whole ‘silent firework’ sl for bonfire night and now we have pa malik wanting to make it sound like the luftwaffe are visiting borsetshire

now we have pa malik wanting to make it sound like the luftwaffe are visiting borsetshire

If only. I trust you have all internalised the lesson about Eid and that no naughty individual is regretting the Catherine wheel which did not jump its moorings and fly into the Snelly face.

Sorry but I stopped listening to this episode. Not interested in Rochelle she is so rude. I also am not interesting in Eid either. A lot of the names I couldn't catch, all said very fast as if we know what they are talking about. We'll perhaps it's just me. Stick those fireworks too, I got badly burnt when I was 14, I was standing behind a load of people. It went over everyone's head and landed on the back of my leg. Had to get treated at the hospital. Hated fireworks since.

Why did Pa Malik take delight at the prospect of annoying his new neighbours with fireworks?

I like Lynda but she was so ingratiating last night.

What purpose will be served by installing Rochelle in the shop?

Surely a rural community doesn't need another night of the year with fireworks to worry about. Especially since the date of Eid changes every year. I wouldn't be impressed with Pa Malik. And Lynda giving her blessing for it, you'd think she would know better. Wasn't it only recently they tried to have silent fireworks for Bonfire night? Yet now it's all fine to have loud explosions because it's Eid...that only one family in the village celebrates?

Rochelle in the shop was so bizarre. She volunteered to do it and then did nothing but moan. She seems extremely childish for someone meant to be in her 40s.

Tbf it sounds like rochelle had a chaotic childhood which was ultimately abusive and she seems to have stuck at the age of a 15 year old. I don’t think that is that unusual tbh

When Listening to Joy and Rochelle I think it’s important to remember that Rochelle was the child.

also, Joy has just done exactly what Rochelle accused her of which tends to support her version of events

i assume the bonfire night fireworks sw was different to last nights

Oh I'm definitely leaning more towards believing Rochelle's version. Joy just packing and disappearing is far from a normal reaction.
Mick's "everything was fine until you showed up" remark was a pretty low blow as well. I'm not really sure why Rochelle wants to be anywhere near them tbh.

Oh I'm definitely leaning more towards believing Rochelle's version. Joy just packing and disappearing is far from a normal reaction. But packing up and disappearing is exactly what Rochelle did when she failed to turn up for the wellness day and presumably what she has done to her own "bairns". Maybe this is Rochelle's pattern of behaviour - blaming her mother for everything that is wrong in her life. If Joy was so terrible, why has Rochelle moved back in with her - twice? Surely if you cut contact with a toxic parent you don't go back? I certainly can't imagine a situation in which you'd abandon your own children to go back. Also I think it's much harder for a parent to admit they've cut contact with their child than vice versa. I like the fact that Mick isn't automatically taking everything Rochelle says as gospel because he knows Joy. And we know Joy - this is a woman who offers her services for free in the village shop several days a week (Rochelle wasn't so keen on that arrangement), who has taken in a homeless Mick, who saved Ben during his mental health crisis... I think it might also go someway to finally explaining why Joy moved somewhere as random as Ambridge - to hide! (Though it still doesn't explain how she could afford to do so or how she supports herself).

Rochelle learnt from her mother!!!

They do display exactly the same pattern of behaviour.

I like this analysis. And also anything that shows just how complex these situations are with each perspective unique.

I’m enjoying the more natural/ native tongue pronunciations by the Maliks. Better than dumbing down with anglicised versions - which wouldn’t happen between father and son.

Yes true about Rochelle leaving. But she hadn't been there for long and it's not her home. I find it more bizarre for Joy to flounce off out of her own house.

Exactly. If Joy was so toxic, why does she keep coming back? Shouldn't Rochelle be NC and on the stately homes thread? The dots still don't join up. I'm wondering if the SW are double bluffing us here.

Maybe Joys parents died before she moved and she had an inheritance. Used it as her chance to start a new life?

Probably joy and Rochelle are codependent and I do think it can be really hard to cut ties

she’s desperate for her mum to recognise what happened to her and apologise and joy isn’t capable so they probably do this dance regularly and joy runs away somewhere new then reels Rochelle back in (she must have given her address at some point?)

I don’t think Joy did leave Rochelle an address. I seem to remember one of her first questions when Rochelle turned up a Christmas was something like How did you find this address? It was absolutely chilling. And iirc the answer was stupid Mick’s fault, from when he’d gone searching for Rochelle after Bridge of Doom.

So mick had met benny

"Home is the place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in."

And she chose Christmas day of all days to turn up. Again, weird. Why wasn't she spending any of it with her own children? No wonder Mick is finding it all hard to get his head around.

The things is, if the SW have planned all along to do a slow burn story on childhood trauma a la Helen and Rob by throwing Joy into the village a few years ago, it just won't work in the same way as Joy has always felt like an outsider who we know nothing about.

I find it more bizarre for Joy to flounce off out of her own house - indeed. This smacks to me of Joy trying to get away from Rochelle - rather than vice versa. I feel as if Joy doesn't dare to show how she really feels about Rochelle, she's trying to make excuses for her, not wanting to be seen throwing her out. Rochelle is a grown woman with two children of her own - she has escaped her allegedly horrendous childhood - so why is she so keen to move back in with the woman who supposedly caused her all this misery?

I think children are often dependent on their parent - especially if abusive. Deep down she’s still hoping her mum will make it all ok for her.

Joy can’t deal with her own guilt so runs away from it - looks like a pattern of behaviour Rochelle has picked up on

I do think it could be a very interesting and complex sl but I don’t think the sw can deal with it and I think it is better suited to the afternoon drama slot

I think children are often dependent on their parent - especially if abusive and I think equally mothers find it hard to cut ties with their children even if they have behaved terribly (possibly not the best example, but I'm thinking of Dot and Nick Cotton in EE back in the day when I used to watch). The difficulty here is that we are really in the dark because Joy appeared from nowhere with no backstory. I'd be more inclined to believe Rochelle if Joy had tried to pretend she had no children rather than painting such a rosy picture of Rochelle and the bairns.

I find that makes Rochelle more believable. Joy is in complete denial

Joy is in complete denial if that were the case then why would she warn Rex about Rochelle?