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Love FM, not enthusiastic about DAB ?

9 replies

NetworkGuy · 27/08/2010 16:54

Spirit FM's Love FM page...

Spirit FM is mustering listeners to see if they can use people pester power to get the government to review/overturn the prospect of switching various FM stations onto DAB.

Personally, I think the Digital Radio Working Group were incredibly short-sighted if they thought the UK should stick with DAB when other countries are switching to DAB+ (and therefore it will be in the manufacturer's best interest to develop new products for the larger DAB+ market and leave us with old designs and no plan to give us any new products).

Add to that the massive number of mobile phones and car radios on FM, along with many homes having a number of FM sets (and they keep "in sync" if you have the same station on in more than a couple of rooms while moving around the house, where DAB / digital are often a second or two apart because of decoding / internet delays)... it makes no sense to move national stations like R1,R2,R3,R4 onto DAB. FiveLive has grotty AM signals here so can see a benefit for those who are interested in news/sport.

R7 (sometime R4 Extra perhaps) should be stereo as they have lots of drama and various relatively new shows are replayed there. It may be fine for some 50s/60s/70s shows but there must be a lot of stereo output from the 80s onwards... So another thing to remember if the BBC/ BBC Trust ever asks about DAB and their stations...

Of course, at present there are too many stations crammed together on DAB for any to be in great quality... Only Radio 3 is at 192 kbps and a few commercial stations run at 160 kbps.

On satellite or Freeview they can give better quality (even if few people know much about radio services on these boxes) and on the internet, if we had higher and more reliable broadband connections, could be CD-quality at 300 kbps and better...

Some US stations do offer high quality sampling, but not everyone over here would be able to listen easily (if they even wanted to!)

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whomovedmychocolate · 27/08/2010 22:18

I think the whole digital thing is going to backfire massively.

Digital radio and TV uses more power, is less suitable for emergency broadcasts etc. because there are very few wind up digital radios in people's homes etc.

I think it's stupid. We have no available service here other than freeview for TV (no analogue, no cables, no chance of a satellite dish because in conservation area/listed building). Our broadband is crap because we are at the end of a very elderly line which cannot be boosted and there is not radio signal other than intermittent digital. How marvelous it is to live in this digital age Hmm

NetworkGuy · 28/08/2010 01:21

I saw a discussion on the BBC messageboards and someone who lives on the N Wales coast says that he has checked a portable and it uses less power than a plain AM/FM radio, so things are changing. Agree on the wind-up shortage though.

Sorry to read of the restricted service you have - I remember there used to be satellite dishes which could be placed in a garden (so long as it could "see" the sky line to the south-south-east so it's not impossible, and given the relatively small size of dishes for Sky now (rather than the 80cm and 1.5m dishes which were available for ground mounting) it would not be an eyesore with the small size of today's dishes...

How far from you is it to a BT roadside cabinet (probably a dark green box, possibly near a [village] post office but just as easily on a street corner on in some position central to a group of homes ?

If there's a cabinet somewhere near, then all is not lost, as FTTC (fibre to the cabinet) is being deployed already. Admittedly there are some areas getting it earlier than others, because [in my view] of current competition from Sky/ O2 with higher speeds, so BT is 'fighting back' to prevent loss of many more customers.

Can you find the exchange on www.SamKnows.com and post the exchange code - might be able to suggest something... Also, who got in as MP - or rather, which party - in case there's some possibility of pushing the MP with reasons for supporting FTTC for your area...

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onimolap · 28/08/2010 01:29

Our new car has digital radio and I loathe it already: it breaks up and hops channels randomly.

I was really hoping the switchover would be cancelled as a no-brain quick and popular win as part of the bonfire of New Labour bossy vanities.

whomovedmychocolate · 28/08/2010 07:16

We are two and a half miles from any BT roadside cabinet and you cannot dig for those two miles as we are surrounded by military listening stations (hence the crap signals). We only got broadband three years ago after a VERY long fight. But thanks for the advice.

Re: Satellite dishes, doesn't work because of the aerials. We are royally screwed I'm afraid. But it's also quite lovely here despite being cut off.

NetworkGuy · 28/08/2010 15:54

How would a satellite dish, in a north-west corner of (say) a back garden, 'pointing' south east, be blocked by any aerials / listening stations ?

Dish only needs to be able to 'see' the sun crossing the horizon to know that it could be pointed to pick up from Astra satellites.

As for the 2.5 miles - that's what, 4 km.

While I would never suggest fibre right to your home, if the cabinet (which must serve others near and far from it) had Fibre then the distance in plain 'copper' would be that 4 km...

What it really needs is some pressure on BT, so that when FTTC is fitted in more rural areas, they don't 'bar' lines which can get less than 15 Mbps. (Currently I think they only accept customers who get 15 Mbps to 40 Mbps, but at 4 km, you would likely get less than a third of 15 Mbps, and that would be considered a 'fail' by BT rules as they stand at the moment.)

Will have to dig out some diagram I had on one of my websites - fasterbb.info - to check the speed expected at 4 km...

Any idea how much further the exchange is from that cabinet (and are you sure there's none closer to you), please ?

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NetworkGuy · 28/08/2010 16:03

"no-brain quick and popular win" - it went through in the Digital Economy Bill in the last couple of days before the parties started their election bids. Tuesday when the date for voting was announced was when there was a vote in the early evening, and then as things were "washed up" the bulk of the bill was accepted and went for assent.

While several aspects of digital TV/radio should give advantages, the BBC is being used as an instrument to "sell" DAB switchover (the "radio amnesty" offering 10% to 20% off digital radios if a customer handed in a set to be sent abroad), and while there are benefits with switching to Freeview (uses a fraction of the analogue station power consumption, when going from 500 KW per channel to 50 KW per multiplex - each mux carrying 3-10 different signals), there will need to be lots of set top boxes bought to cater for the 'other' rooms with TVs in an average home.

DAB - well, audio wise it's not up to the same quality, where DAB+ might be... BBC has recently announced a further 60+ DAB transmitters, so signals might give better coverage even if there's no change in quality of the audio...

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NetworkGuy · 28/08/2010 16:14

Here we gom wmmc - graph shows the expected speeds at different distances from exchange.

Admittedly after about 3 km there's little difference in speeds on ADSL 1 and ADSL 2+, but in your case at 4 km (approx 13,000 feet) it should be possible to get 3-5 Mbps (in theory, interference and electric fences etc notwithstanding), which isn't as fast as many city dwellers may get, but perhaps better than at present

Incidentally, my connection has been a pretty ropey 250 kbps from Wednesday to Friday night, and now it's dead again, after being dead from a week ago Friday to Wednesday... all it takes is a bit of rain! I manage to use the net via a Three mobile USB dongle when the landline is a useless bit of wire with no dialtone and no internet, either...

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Salteena · 29/08/2010 10:46

NetworkGuy - rather than getting into the technical details, my point is: why should thousands, if not millions of people have to throw away perfectly good radios, bought with perfectly good money, so that the BBC and government can force through this measure? And what about car radios? Mine will be rendered a useless piece of junk. I listen to the radio for hours both at home and on long car journeys, and I have radios in several different rooms, most usefully in the kitchen. I'll be deprived of all that if they force the DAB switchover through. And yes, I do have one DAB radio, which will work in ONE room in the house, on the highest floor and only in one corner. We live in a crap area for reception, we can't get Freeview, and there's not much prospect of that changing, I understand. I'm sorry but I'm completely unconvinced.

NetworkGuy · 29/08/2010 12:41

The Freeview situation is likely to change, unless you live in the South-West, Wales, or Cumbria, because there will be changes over the coming few years to increase the signal strengths of the digital channels once the set of existing analogue channels have been switched off for good.

Overall people should have a wider choice on Freeview, and there should also be a dramatic (80+%) reduction in total power consumed for the transmitters. There may be small amounts of power (under 5W per box) added up but it is likely to be relatively small additional consumption if people leave Freeview boxes on Standby (as intended, so they can get updates etc).

As for the switch of national stations to DAB, I quite agree, there appears to be little or no need. I'm "on the fence" to some extent, as I certainly want the option of being able to hear additional stations via DAB (eg BBC R1 Xtra, 6 Music, and Radio 7) while I deplore the implementation (too poor a quality for audio compared with FM) and choice of DAB (if we are to bother changing, we should go to DAB+).

The 'FM Band' would not be empty, because part of the proposal is to allow more local stations on FM, in much the same way as now, where 'restricted service' licences are issued for a few weeks at a time.

I have around a dozen FM radios (when you include an old 'ghetto blaster' and several mobile phones, chosen specifically as they included FM radio), and do see there being a massive problem if people feel they are useless. As things stand, to encourage a switch, I'd say that a rethink is needed for mobile phones especially, as we could use the existing set of cell phone masts to give local transmission of the national radio stations, and while mobile phone coverage isn't 100%, I expect there are plenty of places where it may be better than DAB is (or ever will be).

You cannot just argue without taking some technical aspects into consideration - one of the present 'problems' is financial - the duplication of broadcasting on FM plus DAB is costly and wasteful in energy terms, which I think is part of the reason for suggesting a switch, plus the increased use of the internet for audio streaming (which indeed could be used with some mobile phones, though there would need to be some improvements to allow streaming to be reliable if it was to ever compete with FM for use in a mobile / portable situation, such as driving / walking to the shops).

We must not forget that this was not one of the Bills put forward by the present government, and as far as I can tell, there must have been limited input from the general public (simply because there are so many who feel this is going in the wrong direction).

Also, and not covered previously in this thread, but worth bearing in mind, is that suggestions it will be "forced on us" is somewhat incorrect - it will only happen after there has reached a "critical mass" of people using digital services, at which point the Government can then say "OK, the public has shown it is using digital services to an extent this is worth switching".

So all we need to do, time and again, is to make sure we require any equipment to have FM, and not be forced into choosing items with DAB in them. I see the BBC being used to try to "pressure" change (by tempting people with stations only available via digital services), alongside commercial stations playing 'switch to digital' adverts for free, while they have limited money from 'real' advertisers - switching off some FM services will save stations money, and even some of them are foolish to believe the hype... that DAB would bring them "opportunities" (in a Ferrengi-style "make you lots of cash" type way).

The Digital Britain report stated there would be extra features using DAB - yes, they can display scrolling text messages so it may be possible to have competitions and premium rate numbers shown while music is being played, but I'm far from convinced listeners will be too keen on wasting cash - especially as radio is often used in parallel with other things - while driving, while busy indoors on chores, etc - and not as an "activity" all by itself, in most cases. It's one thing to curl up with a book, or watching TV, but if I was listening to radio, it might be a prelude to sleep, or a gentle 'wake up' - I wouldn't be using it to participate in some prize draw as well...

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