Major building work. What terms do we need to agree with builder?

[MamaChris]

We are having a loft conversion, and have never organised anything on this scale before. We are using a builder recommended by a friend, who says he can do this on a building notice. We have checked with the local planning office, and they agree we don't need planning permission.

When we asked for a contract, he said they "aren't worth the paper they're written on", and is instead drawing up a schedule - what he'll do when, and what we'll pay him when. Does this sound appropriate? What else do we need to ask about? We trust him insofar as he has done good work on a colleague's house (big extension), but we want to make sure to get whatever paperwork is appropriate in place.

Also, his structural engineer claims to be able to design a conversion that won't require party wall agreement (next door is council owned and apparently round here they can be notoriously slow. We have an immovable deadline with twins due in 6 months!). Her design uses a "ply beam" to span the house front to back (8m) rather than side to side. Has anyone heard of these?

You need to detail EVERYTHING that is included in his quote. Who will pay for electric sockets (and how many there will be and where), light fittings, skips. Whether they can use your toilet when on site or you need to hire a portaloo for them. What state they will leave the house in at the end of the day (will they sweep/vacuum up mess or will you need to do). Who will deal with building regs officer. Who will pay if building regs guy wants something changed (one of the builders we've used blamed a cost escalation from 3k to £12k almost entirely on this). What, if anything, will be the penalty for not completing on time (our major works weren't finished in time for ds' birth, which had been the plan). Will all the electrics and plumbing be included, or will he subcontract? Who is responsible for subcontractors work and paying them?

God, there is so much, and it's all fraught with danger! We used a project management company for ours, which helped a lot, but it was still stressful enough!

Thanks CSWS. Lots of things there! I'm going to write it all down, then ask to meet him and step through each item in turn. He has said that he would pay for any cost overruns due to building control, but we do need this in writing. And more detail on the quote. It does include things like "move hot water tank, fit bathroom" and I understood plumbing and electrics included, but, again, you're right, we need it in writing. Do these items form a contract or is it sufficient to list them on paper and both sign (perhaps an "agreement")?

I think that as long as you are both clear on exactly what is included, and have it written down somewhere, it doesn't need to be in a formal 'contract' format.

Things like 'fit bathroom' are a bit vague IMO. What if you, say, wanted to put the toilet on a wall which made the plumbing more difficult than the wall that he wants to put it on - who covers the extra cost? What if you want a wall hung toilet/sink - is that the same cost as a standard one? Does it include tiling (floor, walls, regardless of tile size (we have those teeny tiny stone tiles from fired earth in one of our bathrooms, which are infinitely more time consuming to fit than larger more 'normal' tiles))? Does it include fitting a cabinet - with lights/shaver point? So many details!

OK, thanks. So we'll make a detailed list of everything we can think of, and then meet to go through it with him.

you are better off with a formal contract, our architect did ours -peace of mind on both sides

I wouldn't even think about it without a formal contract - sorry. We've already had one thread on here that ended in court due to contractural stuff.

DP is a builder and has run a business for over 12yrs and wouldn't even think about working on someone's house without a contract!

They ARE worth the paper they're written on! They should be tailored for every job and all the specific elements that it throws up. It lets everyone know where they stand and it protects both yourself AND the builder. What if you suddenly couldn't pay?

OK - so the electrics and plumbing are included....so what happens if a cetificate is refused? Who is responsible for what is considered good work? You've got no contract with them - he has - this gets VERY messy, lots of times. It happened on the thread I mentioned previously.

I know you say he's done good work - but without a contract you are laying yourself bare to those rougue guys you see on the telly. None of them think contracts are worth it. It makes me SO mad because it's builders who spout stuff like that who end up giving the decent guys a bad name. Sorry rant over - but I think you'd be nuts to contemplate such a project without one. You are the client - it's your money and I assume it's going to be a lot of money. I'd wonder why he's so adverse to them.

You would be insane to go ahead with any building works without a contract. We have had a contract for our work and there are still areas where we have had disagreed with our builder/had to negotiate, without the back up of the paper work I think we could have been in a difficult situation (and our builder is a good guy, I would recommend him) but there are always assumptions on both sides - we assumed things were included, he assumed we realised they weren't. Honestly, GET A CONTRACT.

Hi my dh is a loft conversion specialist and ALL his jobs are contracted.

As next door is a council house you will need the party wall agreement and costs between £1000 - £1500. The agreement is needed as the steels need to go into the party wall.

Do you have a copy of the plans?

The fact his architect is saying he can work around the party walls has me concerned.

"retention by you of between 5% and 10% (depending on the total build cost) and will come and snag the build with you after a period, correcting any agreed defects/problems..after which you relaease the retention. Negotiate it with the builder, ideally make it a term of the contract."...

related thread

sugarpear the structural engineer says she can work around the party wall by not resting any steels on the party wall. Instead she intends to use "ply beams" to span the house front to back. That means we will build next to, but not on the party wall, and apparently that means we don't need an agreement. Does that make sense to your dh?

TDiddy when we've spoken about payment schedules he has suggested that a portion would be held back until we were happy with the complete job.

A friend said to use the contracts from the FMB. The builder's away at the moment, but as he said contracts aren't worth anything, but he was happy to put details down on paper, we'll ask him to do in the the form of one of these contracts just for our piece of mind.

Ply beams is fine for the floor. But you need rsj's for the roof support and they have to go in the party wall.

I would advise you to look into this further and get more help from the council. Its better to do it right 1st time than have to pay again to fix the first mistake which can end up costing lots more than the original quote.

A contract is supposed to provide some certainty for both you AND the builder. His statement that they are not worth the paper they are written on is ridiculous frankly. You can either get a construction professional involved to administer the contract and supervise works on site (which I would recommend as it will give you peace of mind and is well worth the money), or you can get a householder contract which is pre-written and you basically have to fill in the blanks.

I know thre are lots of builders who come recommended and prefer to work without a contract or architect/project manager/surveyor. But you do have to ask yourself what are they so afraid of?

Re: the party wall issue, it is theoretically possible to span front to back rather than side to side, but it is VERY unusual to not do SOMETHING to one or other party wall that will require an agreement of some sort, if not a full award. At the very least, you should meet with your neighbours (with the aforementioned structural engineer) and agree what works are going to take place, and sign an agreement (with supporting documentation, eg drawings/structural engineers statement of scope of works) that they have no objection to the works being carried out.

A photographic schedule of condtions of the other side of each party wall is also a good idea (again, protecting all parties) so as to avoid future disputes about cracks, whether they existed before or appeared as a result of the works. Your builder should agree to all of this, and agree to put right any damage.

If your builder is not 100% fine about all of this (and I really do think this is an absolute minimum to expect), then I would advise you to steer clear.

Also, you will require evidence of his insurance. An up to date certificate is not good enough, you need to know what he is actually covered for.

Thanks both. I'm veering from reassured to worried!

We are semi-detached, so only have a party wall on one side. sugarpear is it possible to use just our outside wall and the ply beams to support the roof?

The list of things to ask the builder before work starts is now:

• we need a contract. non negotiable. it needs very detailed specification, and a schedule of payments that includes a retainer for snagging
• we need to see the structural engineer's drawings and check they make logical sense, and possibly speak to her
• we need to see detailed evidence of insurance

Otherwise, we need to find another builder. Which I really hope we don't, as these babies are due in 6 months (and we must expect they may come early)!