Any structural engineers on here?

[IlanaK]

We are in the process of buying a flat. We had a full structural survey which highlighted cracking to the front of the building that might indicate subsidence. As this is a building built in the 1880's and is on London clay soil, this is not surprising. The vendor's managing agent (it is a building with two leasehold flats)instructed a structural engineer on our request which we have paid part of. The report came today and is at odds with the surveyor's report, saying the cracks are old (my surveyor was adamant they were new and had been covered up deliberately when the building was rennovated into flats 5 years ago).

So, who to trust? And if we take it as what the structural engineer said and we find out later they were wrong and the building needs work for subsidence (or we have problems reselling because another surveyor says it is subsidence), would we have come back?

Our old house was mid-Victorian, and had old cracks in it, from when a bomb landed at the bottom of the garden in the war. They didnt move the whole time we were there.

Have you looked at the cracks yourself? Is there any evidence anywhere that they were filled, then opened again (ie got bigger)?

My experience with surveyors is that most of them dont knwo there a*e from their elbow. (I bet someone will come on now saying "how dare you, I am a surveyer and I am very professional", lol)

For example, our neighbour on the other side of the party wall had a leak from his upstairs bath, that made the party wall damp, a few months before we sold.
The surveryor swore blind that there was rising damp in teh wall, and the poor buyers were told that a condition of their mortgage would be that they got expensive treatment for this within 6 months.
There never was any rising damp!

So, if someone like him saw cracks, they would probably say that it was subsidence, just in case.

Why dont you ask the neighbours if they know if a bomb fell there in the War? Clue: are any of the nearby houses new?
Does anyone else in the street have these cracks, and are they moving? (of course, there's no guarantee that people will tell the truth, but you might learn something)

I really trust our surveyor and have had multiple conversations with him over this. Yes, there is evidence in his opinion that the cracking was filled when it was rennovated and then has reopened since then. I trust him more than the structural engineer.

A structural engineer is more technically qualified than a general building surveyor. Its a bit like the difference between a GP and a consultant. Personally, I would be more inclined to believe the structural engineer (I am a surveyor btw.... and do often get my arse and elbow mixed up ).

If his report was proved to be incorrect, then he would have professional indemnity insurance and you could claim (and would receive) damages.

Thanks for that. Do you know if structural engineers have to belong to a professional organisation and can I check that this company does?

They should belong to the Institution of Structural Engineers - they have a website and should have a list of members on it

I was worried you would say that. I am struggling to find them on there.

Its not compulsory - they can still be perfectly legitimate without being members. It would be unusual for a surveyor not to be a member of the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors because, without it, they can't be classed as being Chartered Surveyors but I don't believe it makes much difference to S.E's so its much less unusual iyswim.

Argh! From bad to worse...I have found the company website and I am not convinced they are structural engineers at all. I think he is a civil engineer. I am so cross as the managing agents appointed this company - not us - and we had a recommended proper structural engineer lined up but they went for someone cheaper. Am I right in thinking that since this company seems to be registered with the Institution of Surveyors and not Structural Engineers that the report is not worth the paper it is printed on (since we already have a full structural survey report and needed a structural engineer)?

Not necessarily - a structural engineer is still a surveyor so could be a member of the RICS. Its worth asking to see credentials if you're worried though. Would your surveyor be wiling to have a look at the report and comment on it for you ??

I would disagree with Tilly tbh - I would say a building surveyor is more likely to be experienced in assessing existing buildings. Structural engineers are more often involved in the design of new ones...

There is quite a bit of overlap between building surveyors and civil /structural engineers. Structural engineers are registered as individuals (MIStructE) not companies. Either could do the job if they were appropriately qualified and experienced. Does your report give the qualifications of the person who wrote it?

I suggest you try and get your surveyor to speak to the person who prepared the other report and see if they can come to agreement - you are in a difficult position being stuck in the middle. I think either company should have professional indemnity insurance so if their advice turned out to be complete rubbish you could claim back (never easy though).

If the house has cracks the most likely causes are:

• subsidence due to clay shrinkage nearly always caused by nearby large trees taking water from the ground. This is the classic 1900's London terrace scenario where all the houses were built and trees planted in front - as the trees got bigger the front walls started cracking up in the 1970's.

Many an old house in London has subsidence because when they built them with avenues of trees in front they didn't understand the effect of the roots shrinking the clay. But this usually became apparent when trees reached maturity (1970's) and was often fixed at the time. A few very hot summers also caused similar problems.

For an old house to develop new movement you would need some change such as:
A large new tree to have grown nearby ie. within 15feet
A large nearby tree to have been felled
Badly done structural alterations - roof work, walls removed, something dug to undermine foundations, maybe work to front windows?
Underground problem - say leaking drains or drains damaged by construction work washing away soil.

Any of these are feasible by the sound of it. But they may not mean ongoing movement or subsidence.

There is a great book on this called "Has your House Got Cracks?" if you are willing to spend £15 on Amazon (not a lot in the light of how much is at stake). It's on Google Books too. Well I think it's great

sorry about the repeating - got carried away obviously!

Thanks for that. It turns out that the company and the civil engineer that did the report are registered with RICS - I called them direct to check. He is a civil, not structural engineer. My husband has spoken to him since we got the report and he stands by it. He feels the cracking is localised and needs steel rods put in to support it (it is above and below windows). He was clear that he did not feel it was subsidence. There is not a lot we can do now. Before giving more definitive answers to my husbands questions, he has suggested the best way forward is for him to come back out (at a cost) and look internally at the flat above (we are buying the ground floor flat) to get a better picture. I think, once we have done that, we will have to just go ahead with it. We want the flat. But I think we need to renegotiate the price to take account of the work he says needs doing (about £3000).

Cool - good luck with it then.

I think you need to get an independent structural engineer out, one appointed by the management company will find it hard to be impartial I would have thought!

What is it with surveyors and rising damp by the way? Seems to be their answer to everything when in reality there is almost always a CAUSE of the damp.