about to exchange contracts on a house - should I walk away instead?

[schipo]

Hello all, apologies for long post:

I'm pregnant (24 weeks today!) with pfb and in middle of selling one bedroom flat and buying a more child friendly house with a garden etc.

The house we found is a victorian terrace. It turns out that the basement in this house is a recent addition (but over 10 years old) and seems to have been dug out without planning permission or building control certification. A two story extension has also been added and a chimney flue removed without official approval. These could be more manageable problems though because they don't affect foundations of the house. Also, since we put offer in we've also discovered there's a party wall agreement with neighbours who are about to dig out their own basement.

Planning permission isn't an issue after all this time, but the lack of building control documentation (esp in basement) could be a real problem for a long time.

The seller (who has lived in house for 9 years) says they've had council come round to approve the works in last week and were told to put in fire doors and smoke alarms but won't be able to get us official documentation to prove this before we complete. Since they've spoken to council though they can't take out indemnity insurance about this I understand.

Anyway, I spoke to a structural engineer on Friday who strongly recommended that we just count our losses and walk away.

He says that without spending thousands of pounds drilling into basement foundations to make sure that underpinning etc no-one can really make any guarantees that the property is sound, and if problems are found the costs could be huge! He was also alarmed to hear about works planned by neighbours. They could uncover problems which we become responsible for.

Is this really our only sensible option?

I had thought that we could ask for a refund of some of our original offer price to so we can fix all these problems in our own time. I spoke to engineer imagining he could quote me a rough costs for investigation and any remedial work.

Any advice would be much appreciated

Yes, all very difficult!

The thing is this house has a 6 bed, and it's about the price of most 4 bed houses in the area (ne london). There's a two bedroom flat in the basement we could let out and we were thinking that it would be good to have an alernative source of income in the future, incase we don't get to rely on our two incomes forever. Would allow us to spend more time with baby.

There really aren't many similar properties around!

Also the house has been on market for over two years (what we were told is there was a messy divorce and many chains fell through). The party wall agreement is only three months old.

The seller has said today that he won't pay for any structural engineer's investigations and says (as a surveyor himself) he is convinced the house is structurally sound - (for whatever that may or may not be worth!)

Spoke to our surveyor today who, off the record, agreed that the foundations are quite likely better now than the original victorian foundations would have been. He also confirmed that he couldn't see any obvious structural problems that would indicate a problem with the foundations. He did say that he could never put that in writing and gave strong warnings about the difficulty in resale, and even in getting insurance. He said if we did go ahead that we should request a significant reduction in price - enough to cover both investigation and underpinning of whole house. The seller has not been up front about any of these problems so can't argue that the price already takes the problems into account.

So, I'm making further enquiries into building insurance, will write to solicitor tomorrow about how, with a big enough adjustment to the price, we would still be prepared to take on the risk. The adjustment we're asking for is so big though that I'm not expecting it to be accepted!

Schipo, the house has been on the market for two years and it is a 6 bed for the price of a 4 bed because no one else will touch it with a bargepole!

There are very good reasons for a suspiciously low price. If there was nothing wrong with the property it would have sold long ago.

As everyone else has said, cut your losses and withdraw from the sale. Really.

it's a six bed house that needs some decoration that is about the same price as the four bed ones in the nicest streets with beautiful brand new kitchens and bathrooms. I've seen a much cheaper 6 bed houses in the area that was obviously held together with string. I did run from that straight away.

but yes, i'm not sure i believe the estate agent when they say the reason it hasn't sold is because the the seller kept losing houses in the school catchment area they were chasing.

i'm sure one way or another will be letting go of this house v soon...

Sales fell through because the house is made of cheese! The seller has been waiting for a pregnant excited couple to put their dreams in to it - but it's just bricks and mortar and pretty crap bricks and mortar at that - don't be a mug!

I think you have made your mind up to buy this house regardless.

In allhonesty there might not be many houses around like this but that is for a very good reason and I also don't think this house will be round for long.

I agree with Fab - I think you are talking yourself into it. This is the biggest single purchase most people make and I think you need to think really carefully about it. If something looks too good to be true, unfortunately it usually IS too good to be true, and I wouldn't trust a word the vendor says. The fact your surveyor won't put things in writing and is warning about resale issues really ought to be the last straw...

The vendor wants rid and will say anything to do it. And already you are talking about when you come to sell it. What is the point in moving into a house that you are already not considering it might be your forever house?

It will never be the family home you envisage, even with insurance , certificates whatever, the first crack or repair will open up huge worries for you. The fact a surveyor won't put anything in writing is alarming - they usually like to cover themselves. It is simply not possible that with all those offers noone else has reached this stage and not fled in horror. The vendor knows what is what and has hitherto tried to avoid doing anything to facilitate future sales - he cuts corners in his area of alleged expertise, so why would you trust his word ?

I think you should have a look at the website ThisOLdHouse.com.All houses have a bit of movement it may be historic and stopped ages ago and there are some simple things which can be done to stabilise it depending on the cause.If there is a flat in the basement a lot of the work could be done without disturbing you upstairs.Subsidence is not always a no no.Nor is damp people st see these words on surveys and run a mile but many of us are living in the SE in moving properties!What does the engineer suggest re the longer term and remedial work?

Message withdrawn

Sorry have only just seen that next door are planning the same!Have they got plans and a party wall agreement etc.

i'd walk

yep, neighbours have plans, surveyors and a party wall agreement. no builder yet though and no schedule of works

still waiting for news re buildings insurance..

I am hearing these warnings. Considering whether to stay put or rent...

What have their surveyor/architect said about the stability of the buildings?I would be surprised that any dig would get the go ahead if it was instable.Are there any drawings etc for teh house you are interested in?Do you NEED 6 beds?

Don't have all that documentation with me here at work but i haven't seen any Surveyor speak of any actual evidence of instability or subsidance other than the fact that someone did work in the basement without getting it regulated. That alone raises a lot of questions. I'm not sure if the neighbours and their surveyors know this.

There are a few small cracks in house we're buying but our surveyor said they're very old or superficial and don't indicate any ongoing movement. He hasn't refused to put his follow up response in writing, he just said that if he did put something in writing he would have to a lot less optimistic about stability of property (eg. on phone he said the current foundations are probably more solid now than the original foundations would have been - i don't think he'd put that in writing)

And no we don't really need 6 beds at all but being able to rent out a 2 bed flat would have helped to pay mortgage. Just need 4, or 3 plus some room for a decent sized workspace/studio

A friend bought a house that had had an extension built on without the necessary paperwork.

Surprise, surprise, the extension (and other work in the house) had been poorly done, by a "cow-boy" builder.

It was a nightmare to sell and she desperately wanted to move as she had nightmare neighbours (verbally abusive ma and pa with a peeping-tom son).

This house sounds like a very un-polishable turd - I wouldn't be surprised if the vendor thinks you are mugs ("no paperwork until completion" - my arse!). If change your minds once you exchange, you will have lost your deposit.

Please cut your losses (on fees etc) and run.

I've done moves with a) one one-year-old baby b) a 4 and 1-year-old c) a 6, 4 and one-year-olds.

Moving with just one baby is a piece of piss.

Sell your flat and rent, but I wouldn't buy this house.

Agree with expat RENT! Once the election is over house prices will go through the floor and you'll get a bargain!

Understandable about the surveyor not wanting to put anything in writing, as once he states his professional opinion, he is effectively liable.

However, does the current owner have insurance? Would it be worth asking them the name of the company that insures them, as presumably the insurance company knows about the structure. Or possibly not?

that current owner is surveyor, yet does not want to pay for a full structural survey....

I am a surveyor and I wouldn't pay for my buyer's structural survey - caveat emptor and all that. And in any case, as the purchaser I would want my own independent survey done.

I think he's seen you coming schipo - no documentation until completion is ringing huge alarm bells with me!!! As is the fact that there is this 'golden opportunity' of a house that's sat on the market for two years. It's either massively overpriced, or other people have got to where you are and walked away due to this issue.

Did you have a full structural survey done or just a homebuyers one? (TBH I'm not surprised the surveyor won't put a definitive answer in writing - I shouldn't think his PI cover would be valid if he did so )

noddy I wouldn't get your hopes up too high on that score

Not my hopes!have spoken to several people recently who have advised me over the years and all without exception say the current price recovery is temporary as it is built on weak fundamentals!I have been doing this for 12 years and think they are right

Walk away.

We had a similar situation late last year - not the same problems, but we had offered on a house that turned out to have a lot of issues attached and needed a lot sorting out. The estate agent was super-keen for us to go for it () and he would have persuaded DP but I was really worried about unforeseen costs and having to get major work done while heavily pg/with a small baby. I got my way in the end and I have never been so relieved - I still feel relieved just thinking about it.

It all worked out for us - we were going to stay put or rent after that, but suddenly it all happened, we found a house, got an offer on ours and moved before we were going to move anyway. We have sacrificed a bit on space (no spare bedroom) but instead we have a lovely house in good condition with all the paperwork sorted and no outstanding neighbour negotiations to deal with.

Renting space out to lodgers is far from a walk in the park anyway and could bring untold stress, even apart from the problems with the house itself.

Schipo,

Just like to add 2 things.

1. If the property has been on sale for 2 years than the vendor has had plenty of time to organise the relevant inspections and amass the correct paperwork. If he is a surveyor, surely he should have known about all this.

1. You may be able to see if there has been a dramatic reduction in price, and how long it has been on sale, by looking at the property snake uk website.

I had a full structural survey done right at the beginning, what I haven't done, and what seller won't pay for is for a structural engineer to supervise drilling into foundations to see what they're made of. I hear that would cost about 5k. I'm not about to pay for it on a house I don't own either.

I spoke to Lloyds/tsb today and they WONT insure unless someone drills into foundations and produces a report about how great they are. I'm wondering if current owners insurance is valid.

Estate agent is getting quite irritated with me now, insisting there's no difference between this and any other property that isn't under a 10 year new build guarentee and that it's now fully insured at normal rates. When I questioned this, saying surely unregulated work done on basement since 1984 (when building regs law came into force afaict?) would make anyone nervous, and any insurer nervous, he promised to get back to me with the name of the company currently insuring the property. I'm still waiting!!

I've certainly learnt a lot! I'm a naive owner of lease on a new build flat and haven't ever tried to buy freehold before. I wish I'd known how serious building regs issue was when surveyor first raised it long before xmas

Property snake site v interesting. Hadn't seen that before either. Strangely though house in question doesn't appear on it, so maybe they haven't dropped price, or it hasn't been on as long as they tell me it has.

Now I'm doing a lot of calculations comparing the cost current mortgage with weekly rates for short term lets. We'd be more than double our mortgage to rent a similar flat..!

thanks all for your comments