about to exchange contracts on a house - should I walk away instead?

[schipo]

Hello all, apologies for long post:

I'm pregnant (24 weeks today!) with pfb and in middle of selling one bedroom flat and buying a more child friendly house with a garden etc.

The house we found is a victorian terrace. It turns out that the basement in this house is a recent addition (but over 10 years old) and seems to have been dug out without planning permission or building control certification. A two story extension has also been added and a chimney flue removed without official approval. These could be more manageable problems though because they don't affect foundations of the house. Also, since we put offer in we've also discovered there's a party wall agreement with neighbours who are about to dig out their own basement.

Planning permission isn't an issue after all this time, but the lack of building control documentation (esp in basement) could be a real problem for a long time.

The seller (who has lived in house for 9 years) says they've had council come round to approve the works in last week and were told to put in fire doors and smoke alarms but won't be able to get us official documentation to prove this before we complete. Since they've spoken to council though they can't take out indemnity insurance about this I understand.

Anyway, I spoke to a structural engineer on Friday who strongly recommended that we just count our losses and walk away.

He says that without spending thousands of pounds drilling into basement foundations to make sure that underpinning etc no-one can really make any guarantees that the property is sound, and if problems are found the costs could be huge! He was also alarmed to hear about works planned by neighbours. They could uncover problems which we become responsible for.

Is this really our only sensible option?

I had thought that we could ask for a refund of some of our original offer price to so we can fix all these problems in our own time. I spoke to engineer imagining he could quote me a rough costs for investigation and any remedial work.

Any advice would be much appreciated

Why don't you arrange for a structural engineer to actually inspect the building, as it sounds from your post like you have only talked on the phone about it? Then you will have definite knowledge of the state of the basement, based on more than just his 'worst case scenario on the phone' opinion.

I expect that at the time of the approval of your mortgage the mortgagee was not aware of the numerous issues. It will have assumed everything is in order (as will the valuer who attended to value) until your solicitor advise it of any deviation from that assumption.

I am afraid that I am entirely with Panic mode on this one...the legals can be sorted out relatively easily( though not necessarily cheaply)BUT the current structure and ptential problems of your neighbour affecting sturctural support are in a whole different league.

If I were your solicitor I would advise you not to proceed without a full structural survey commissioned with these specific issues and their resolution in mind, and I would also be advising your mortgagee (who wouls also be my client) not to lend without it considering such a surveyors report and recommendations and costings therein.

In short,...I would walk and suggest you look for another property. Hope it works out for you.

well, if anyone's still there

the latest is that seller of house assures us that the council's building dept have visited and said they'll issue a 'Certificate of Regularisation' for whole property if they add fire doors and smoke alarms.

I'm not sure yet (waiting for confirmation from solicitor) whether this would amount to more than a fire safety certificate...

we have a couple more days to decide whether to go through with sale of flat..

LittlePushka we did pay for a full building survey right at the beginning of this process. Is that not the same as the full structural survey you're talking about?

I'm a bit alarmed that certification seems so easy to get from council - doesn't sound like they've done any serious investigation.

Still, if that's all we'd need to sell the house in the future then perhaps then there's still hope...?

Certificate will not address the structural concerns identified...only a survey will do that.

Would be interested to hear the outcome.!

What does a certificate of Regularisation mean? Does it mean that it has been inspected for fire regs? Or has the Council done a complete survey?

While some surveyors can err towards caution, as their professional opinion carries more weight, I agree that you need a full structural survey before proceeding including an inspection of the foundations.

Also, how does it work if net door are going to dig out their basement? Have they had a survey done?

Lastly, does indemnity insurance mean that should you be liable for any damage, you are covered? My understanding is that it only pays for retrospective planning costs, but am very happy to be wrong on this!

Another vote to say sell the flat, rent and look for a sensible house.

Check with your morgage provider. You may find if there are structural issues your morgage offer is not valid. We had an underpinning issue only on one side wall and the bank make us exchange do the work and then complete. It cost us £9000! They would not even give us a retention or release the money until they were in possession of the certificate from the structural engineer certifying and guaranteeing the work carried out.

Re legal situation with mortgage I'll check with solicitor again tomorrow. They haven't given any conditions so far.

I've just checked over the original full building survey we had done. It states:

"It appears that the property has been excavated to the lower ground floor level to provide additional accommodation in excess of 20 years ago....no structural defects could be observed to the walls at low level...your solicitor should however confirm the necessary Building Regulations Consent is in place for these works to ensure the adequacy of the foundations.. "

I guess I can try calling this surveyor tomorrow to see if he thinks the promised 'Certificate of Regularisation' would in any way compensate for lack of original 'Building Regulations Consent'. If not then maybe he can suggest some other investigation that the seller can pay for. Or maybe he'll tell us to forget it too

It might seem mad to be trying to hold onto this house - but there are so few other houses available around here at the moment (I spent all yesterday looking) and we've put so much time and money on this one already it's hard to let go until we've exhausted all faint glimmers of hope...

Ftr. The next door neighbours have had surveyors round to make party wall agreement - and there's insurance in place to cover any damage that their works cause to the property we're supposed to be buying.

'the necessary building regulations...' is the bit that got us into trouble. They had extended the garage (this is were the foundatioins issue came from) and could not prove when works were carried out. There was no record of planning permission or build regulations and therefore no council issued building certificate. Its why the people who originally had an offer on the house pulled and we stepped in. We had a full structural report before proceeding with the sale however. if you can cover your costs and put up with the inconvenience of builders (we did) then is will still be worth it. Nothing came close to our house when we were looking and we spent every weekend for 60 months doing viewings and most evening scanning the net so I sympathise with how you feel.

Seems like there are 2 separate issues. One being the lack of planning permission, which the Council seems satisfied with now retrospectively, and the other being from a structural stance, are the foundations secure?

Could you have a chat with your house insurance provider and ask would they be willing to insure the building? If so, then fine. If not, what would they need?

6 months even.

LOL at Oldenglish correction to looking for house for "FIVE" years!! Hell, youd have pitched a bloomin tent by then!

schipo I understand your attachment to this house - but seriously you must walk away.

You seem to think this is a paperwork problem. It isn't. Your house could fall down!

It is your solicitor's job to ensure all building work has been done correctly not just for you but for the mortgage company as well and your mortgage company will have specific terms and conditions on their mortgage offer relating to those. What does s/he say?

ilove also raises a good point. Is your house even insurable?

We nearly lost out on our house because the people selling it were buying a property that turned out not to have the required buildings regs. Their solicitor told them to abhort the sale. We eventually exchanged with a moveable completion date and completed when they went into rented accommodation.

Renting and buying somewhere else later are good options. You are a much more attractive buyer if you're in rented than if you're in a chain.

Good luck

No permissions, no purchase. It just isn't worth it.

Also with next door about to dig otu their basement, not only are there the structural issues but you would have the noise, disruotion and disturbance while you are trying to settle a young baby .

Here is some info on Certificate of Regularisation. It doesn't actually look at the quality and structure of the work , more the plans and regulations. They can't have looked that deeply if it has been done so speedily

Walk...
There are two issues here - one is a paperwork one which the council seem happy to sort out...
The other is the actual work that has been done and to what standard. You have had a structural engineer tell you that it will cost big money to check the whole thing is sound....listen to him....

A piece of paper, a smoke alarm and fire doors don't alter the fact that the house has been severely altered, and you have no idea (and neither does the council mandarin who signs the piece of paper) how deep your foundations are, and therefore how structurally sound the house now is. What does your neighbour's insurance actually say - what constitutes damage - subsidence or will they rebuild if the house falls down?

We had to get the council to check that a window we'd had installed was ok as the rules regarding using a FENSA registered contractor changed during the time of the work - I made an appointment for the guy to come round - he was (VERY) late and I had to go out for half an hour; I returned home to find the signed piece of paper on the floor - he'd not inspected internally and had probably driven past the house in first gear.....s/he's not going to check in detail, only look at whether what is there corresponds to the plans lodged at the council(if there are any).

I personally, would be running, not walking in the opposite direction, or be prepared to write some large cheques......

Schipo - you don't know if the house you are planning to put your pfb in is actually safe! It may be - but the only way to know is do the extensive and expensive works your SE advised. If it's knackered it will cost more to fix than you can bear, you won't be able to sell the house except with difficulty and you and your dh will have HUGE rows about this. This kind of thing is a major red flag.

Run like the wind!

Aside from the worst-case scenarios of collapse, $$$$$$$ structural work, insurance, it is a very good point about noise from the neighbour's work.

The flat we lived in when DD was born had renovations going on for about eight months, and quite honestly, if I thought I could have got away with putting a hit on the owners, I would have. It really was that bad. I still have vivid flashbacks to how awful it was, and we left the flat 14 months ago.

That alone would put me off.

Sorry, should have previewed - the renovations were going on in the adjacent flat, not ours.

A couple of years ago around here, someone decided to dig a basement without proper permission and expertise. The terrace houses on either side collapsed into the hole!

I would run like the wind.

Yup - it's been ok so far but imo next door are taking a bit of a risk digging out if they know the house you want wasn't done to regs. It could be that they've been holding 'your' house up. They may have indemnity insurance etc but it would still be an absolute bugger to sort out.

Where are you looking and what budget - can we scan the internet for you? Fresh eyes and all that!

It does seem a bit suspicious that the owners are moving out now that next door have decided to excavate their basement. I live in a poncy part of SW London and I can think of three sites that I have walked past in the past 18 months or so where the houses have collapsed because they have been overly-excavated. It is a seriously fiddly job and you don't even have to be a cowboy to get it wrong. IMO, someone who does this sort of work without PP and BR probably isn't going to be that scrupulous.