No building regs for extension or loft conversion - would you proceed with house purchase

[NorkyButNice]

We're in the process of buying a house which seemed ideal - the owners have done a loft conversion and added an extra bedroom which appeared to have been done really nicely.

After holding back on providing documents to my solicitor for the last 3 weeks, it now appears that they had no planning permission or building regs sign off for the works that have been done. I think they're OK on the planning front, but obviously they should have got building regs to sign off the work.

Their solicitor is now asking if we'll accept the vendors buying us an indemnity insurance policy to cover us in the eventuality that the council comes along and challenges us over the work, but if we accept that there's no way to get retrospective sign-off (and so no way to guarantee that the work has been done safely and to the required standards).

Other option is insisting that the vendors apply for building regs before the sale goes through (and remedy any issues that are raised).

I'm fuming as the vendors have spent the last 3 weeks trying to hide the truth from us. It seems they'd been lying to their solicitor all this time too - makes me wonder what else might be wrong.

What would you do in this case? Sorry this is so long!

phone the council and check whether any building regs inspections were done at all during the build. you can do this anonymously if necessary. if it is just the final sign off then you can do a holdback situation: withhold £5000 until final regs come through up to a time limit of 6 months or whatever. if there was never any inspeciton at all then i would walk away or negotiate a massive discount sufficient to cover any hideous problem.

No other extensions/knocked-down walls/replacement windows etc are there?

pavlov, if i was buying your house i wouldn't notice what you'd done - as long as the paperwork was in place I don;'t think it would occur to me to ask

lots of stuff that's in houses now wouldn't pass regs if it was new - downstairs loos too small for wheelchairs etc etc. It's the original signoff that matters to me

that is interesting/reassuring to read missinginaction. I guess we are presuming that the structural report would spot it.

Sorry, I got your name wrong

If you are getting a mortgage, your lender will want building regs and planning for all the rooms you are paying for - ie the loft. Or insurance. You can get insurance for lack for building regs; I have done that for a client this week. Let me know if you need the name of the insurer. The mortgagee perspective might assist with price negotiations with your seller, because everyone else who needs a loan to buy the house is in the same position.

I don't think there's an issue with insurance as being dodgy, and as Liz says you can pass it on when you sell. The key point for me is the one you mention - has the work been done properly and safely, and what else has been done to the house? If you're in love with the house you might need your surveyor to go round again with that brief, remembering that building regs change over time.

The work was only done 18 months ago so I can't imagine regs have changed a lot in that time.

My solicitor tells me we can't ask the council whether regs were sought at any point as we then couldn't apply for insurance if we did decide to proceed.

At the moment, 2 of the bedrooms aren't signed off, so that would mean I'm essentially paying 390k for a 2 bee house.

Does the fact they've lied on their HIP mean I can get them to reimburse my costs so far if we pull out?

aargh hadn't realised it was 2 bedrooms. Can they say why they didn't go back to get buidlings regs , is it just a formality ? Can you speak to the builder ? Presumably it has got a window or 2 up there so if they won't tell you the name of the builder for you to check their story the FENSA website should show who registered the new windows.

Step away. We nearly bought a beautiful house with incredible loft, then the survey came back, the roof was sagging as they removed too much support, there was a huge crack all down the front which needed attention, the kitchen floor was lifting up due to some other problem. This house was a dream, expensive stylish radiators, beautiful flooring, bath on feet, the lot but underneath all the structure was dodgy. It felt like they had not only polished the turd but put gilt on it.

How much is indemnity insurance then? what is it actually for?

We are about to buy a lovely house with no building regs for the not habitable loft room (is an additional space, was created in 1999) or the conservatory (which apparently doesn't need it). Not worried about quality of work, surveyor's report amazing and the condition of the house v good for it's age (far better than ours ). Will have to check it all out with solicitor though.

I don't know how much it costs - the vendors would pay for it if we decided to proceed (which I don't think we will at the moment).

This is the thing goldenpeach - they said they spent 50K on the loft conversion with all the en suite fixtures and fittings. Farrow and Ball throughout, 500 pound shower heads, remote control blinds on the windows... what on earth is the point if they haven't got building regs?

The survey came back with a few small issues but nothing related to the extension work. Obviously there's no way he could see the underlying structural integrity of the work though, without ripping up floorboard or taking down walls. They've put in a dormer window which obviously affects the roof integrity too - all things I'd want to get sign off for rather than taking the insurance option.

Oh I didn't realise it was 2 rooms.You can apply for a regularisation certificate but I would check it out seriously as it is essentially a 2 bed until all is legal.How much is a similar 2 bed in the area?

The insurance is about 200 btw

No, I think you are right to get it signed off. It's the fact they've hidden it from you that seems weird/dodgy- surely they'd realise it would come up?

Norky, I know it would be impossible but they sound like those sellers of the doomed house: £300 radiators (each) in the living areas, incredibly expensive fittings in bathrooms. I was furious as the survey was £600 and we were desperate but then the other house turned up and it was cheaper and a semi to boot.

It does rather sound like they might be trying to hide something

Are you sure they didn't also need pp for the dormer ? The rules were only relaxed recently.

I believe the work was done 18 months ago, so not sure about the planning rules at that point. I have checked the current rules and I think it's OK, apart from the fact that it's supposed to blend in with the appearance of the current building which it really doesn't.

If you apply for building regs retrospectively, how can they check the work to the same extent they would during the build? I've lost faith in the house I think.

For what is worth, I had to top up an indemnity insurance on my house, the seller bought if for me when i bought at 140 (she had not a clue about an old extension and when i sold for 190 I was asked to top up as buyers nervous about my conservatory being build on a pipe (which had been properly strenghtened but they were nervous so I topped it up to the new value of 190). It cost me 400 pounds and it was a top up, so not sure it's only 200

This happened to us when we bought last year. But as in the case of Marques, the work in question had been done years ago. The surveyors were satisfied with the quality, but the council only had half the paperwork. It would not surprise me if the council lost the other relevant half, and the sellers bought us indemnity. I was happy enough in this case to go ahead.

However, it sounds like your situation is really differet - lying to the HIP people, work recently done (and therefore possibly sitll under the council's radar). I just don't think I'd risk it.

Forgot to mention that I didn't make a massive profit as I had to spend over 30K to fix it as awful ex rental. Since then I don't trust anybody. My second house had a lovely survey but they failed to spot a few things, which were minors, but it annoyed me.

In reply to Fivegomad in Dorset 2009
My daughter bought a house with no planning permission for a loft bedroom and toilet, but sellers and estate agent were upfront and was included in info to buyers, even explaining that although it did have 3 bedrooms, it could be classed only as 2. She paid £50 herself for an indemnity insurance and paid for the thickening of its floor, which made the bedroom underneath a slightly lower ceiling, as that upper loft floor was not really safe or to regs
I bought a bungalow, being the 5th owner, and after I moved in, the solicitor phoned me say there was no planning permission found by the council for the rear single extension, which he knew as was in contact with the surveyor who informed him, so solitors should be be aware of extensions on a property with no planning permission

He told me it was no problem as was obviously older than 10 years - after 10 years I discovered it was 30 years old at the time, but don't think my house insurance will insure it and people who have quieried this on forums have never had a reply to this question
Anyone had experience of House insurers refusing to cover extensions with no planning permission?

My house does not have building regs because the loft conversion meant they wanted me to change every door in the house to a fire door - that I would then be allowed to leave wide open.
I refused.
I have it all in writing.
Everything else is fine.

After the work was completed the council upped my council tax band, despite not giving the sign off.

Building Regs are a stupid system.
The team leader admitted that around 1 in 4 homes is not signed off at any time, mostly to do with fire regs like mine.

We bought a house with a loft conversion which had no consent- didn't bother us but our house was valued on the basis that the loft room couldn't be counted as a bedroom.

Building regs can be hard to get retrospectively and it's a nightmare for lofts with all the requirements for fire doors, etc. you might end up taking some of floor/ceiling out to show correct strengthening/insulation has been used.

We aim to sort ours out but it will cost a lot to make right, and I will be refusing to comply totally- I'm not ripping out my traditional doors!

What I think I'm trying to say is that in our case it was ok, but we went in with our eyes open. I'd be getting the valuer back as well- the mortgage company will want to know.

Don't get the seller to pay for the engineer. Surveys and such like are not warranted to 3rd parties only to those who have paid for the report.

Get it done yourself. If you really like the house it's worth it.

Part of the problem is that with most of the structure supporting the roof now being enclosed under plaster and board etc, it's not possible for an engineer or building control for that matter to see exactly how the conversion was carried out.

To take this on, you really have to love the house and have absolutely no doubts about it.

I would not accept indemnity insurance on this matter either. I would insist they apply for retrospective building control certificate and planning.

The indemnity insurance will not stop the council serving you with an enforcement notice in future. And it may not be possible to establish exactly how much value then will have been knocked off your home with fewer bedrooms.

Besides if you are forced to turn it back into a loft, will it still be spacious enough for you to live in??