Loft Conversion and building regs - help please

[greenbeanie]

We were due to have a loft conversion starting in the next couple of weeks to create a bedroom, office and bathroom. All seemed to be going fine until building regs came round.

They have said that in order for the conversion to comply with regs as it will be adding an extra floor to a 2 storey house we will need to replace every door in the house with a fire door, replace all the architrave round the doors and install fire strips, that are apparently strips that go around the door frame and swell if there is a fire to seal off rooms.

We live in a 1930's house and I would be really reluctant to get rid of all the original doors and architrave. We have been told that our only other option is to install a sprinkler system! Also all the landing and hall ceilings need an extra 2 layers of plaster board to meet fire regs.

This all seems really excessive, I know it is to keep us safe in the event of a fire. Has anyone else had to go to this extent with a loft conversion? It would completely blow our budget as the cost of doors etc and all the work would be an extra 5k so at the moment it looks like we can't go ahead.

mmm, sounds a bit over the top?
When we had our loft conversion done 5 years ago we were asked to ensure we had a mains-powered smoke alarm on every floor, and these alarms had to be linked. No worries, that was easily done.
We also had to have 'springs' fitted to our existing doors so they automatically close. (in fact we have to use wedges to keep them open and then shut them at night)
The only door that had to be a fire door was the door to the loft room.
Oh, and one of the velux windows had to be of a certain size to act as fire-escape.
No mention of fire strips.

This was in a Victorian semi by the way. The only other thing they told us that we were not allowed to ever knock through from living room to dining room as that would negate all the fire-regulations. But we were not planning on doing that anyway. (Am old-fashioned and like my little Victorian seperate rooms )

Can you speak to them again to double check?

green this was standard when we had our loft done. We had all our doors replaced, and fanlights removed above the doors upstairs.

Perhaps the building regulations vary slightly depending on the individual council.

Your architect (assuming he/she is local) could have warned you. We knew this was the case right from when the plans were drawn up.

p.s. we didn't have to have the bathroom doors replaced. Also we did have to have a mains smoke alarm system with battery back up installed.

No, they are national standards so should be the same everywhere - but the officers differ and so might be implementing them differently.

we didn't have our doors replaced either!

Come to think of it - our bathroom and kitchen doors did not need one of those closing-springs.

Maybe it is to do with the size of the house? Ie above a certain square footage you have to have fire doors throughout? Or perhaps it is because you are putting 3 rooms up there? Ours is a small Victorian cottage so we literally just have one room in the loft - ds's bedroom. No dormer either, just Velux windows. Perhaps that makes a difference too?

We definately did not need to have our doors replaced, nor did we have to have those strips, and the building regs man from the council popped in very frequently to monitor progress so there is no way it could have gone un-noticed.

Agree with whoever said that your architect/builder could have / should have pre-warned you and included the additional work in his / her quote? Shurely he / she must know?

We have a dormer in the loft (which is bedroom and shower room) if that makes any difference.

We are in a 1990's standard estate detached - had loft done 3 years ago, they put self-closing springs on the doors and the loft room door has the "fuzzy" strip round it. (Nothing like a heat-swelling strip or anything). If it is really necessary I would argue with the builders that they should understand building regs and it should come out of their costs not yours, as they gave you a price for the job.

I know someone who got told they had to do this so they bought the cheapest fire doors they could and put them in for the inspection then promptly put the victorian doors back afterwards! I'm far too goody,goody to do that but it worked for them.

We had to do this when we had our loft conversion done in Dec last year. All the cost for fitting all the new doors was included in the price but we bought the doors as they come in a range of styles / prices. From memory we paid about £400 - £500 for all the doors and trim, that was for 4 doors all of which are 4 panel doors so fit in with the early Edwardian style of house we have.
Can you come to some arrangement like this? It should have been mentioned much earlier in the process as these are not new regulations.

Buildings regs concerned with fire protection changed and became much more demanding in April 2007, so the experiences of people who had their loft conversions done before then are not relevant. What you outline is standard according to the current regs.

As wigglybeezer says, there are work-arounds, but of course if there ever WAS a fire, your insurance would be invalidated, so you have to be relaxed about risk to go down that route.

I had a loft conversion done recently and a sprinkler system fitted btw, I would recommend that option.

I am really shocked that your architect/builder didn't factor all this in tbh. It would make me seriously question his competence, and hesitate to go ahead with using him on a major project.

Yes, we had to change all our doors, and the architraves, didn't need to change the kitchen or bathroom as these were not classified as rooms you would sleep in/spend long periods of time in (mad to me, a room is a room, you could be on the loo/in the bath and a fire could start).
You don't have to have self closing springs on the door anymore.
You can change them after inspection, but you need to be careful as it can invalidate your insurance.
I did think that the rules had changed again though.
Have a look on the planning portal, like someone else said, the regs are the same across the country, but can be interperated differently,by different officers.
You will probably find that the builders would not accept costs, as you can never be sure what the building control will ask for, when we did an extension they asked us to dig foundations to 3m deep, when the regs only state 1m, so a huge extra cost to us.

Yep, while the planning permissions for lofts relaxed the rules on fire regs tightened. The building inpectors are really hot on it.

I'm with Campergirls in that it's a surprise the builder didn't know about this. I'd be asking serious questions too. It's should be part of the planning to make sure basic regs like this and any changes in laws are all sorted out up front and the costs factored in.

If you want it all doing according to the rules, signed off, done properly and all above board then I don't see how you can get round it. My DP won't do a job unless it's signed off by building inspectors if it needs to be - wouldn't be worth getting a bad reputation for.

Thanks for all your responses - it looks like we should have had it done before 2007!!
Campergirls interesting to hear that you had a sprinkler system fitted. I have to say that this would probably be the route that we would want to take as I would be reluctant to replace all the doors, they've got original bakelite handles and match all the built in wardrobe doors. In addition it would mean changing 10 doors to meet the regs, in addition to changing the character of the house.

Would you mind teling me how much the sprinkler system cost? It would be great to have some idea of what to expect.

Actually, my house already had a sprinkler system on the lower floors, and so it was really only a case of getting it extended - I think it came in at a couple of hundred.

I don't know how much it cost to fit the original system, it was put in by a previous owner about 10 years ago. Rule of thumb I believe is about £2 per sq ft, so judging by what you say about your house probably a sprinkler would cost you a fair bit less than the undesirable alternative.

I've just been watching property snakes and ladders on C4 now and they have said that most councils will take into consideration using special fire retardant paint on the original doors.
It might be worth looking into it.

Don't know if anyone is still watching this thread - was hoping to CAT greenbeanie to ask if she had her sprinkler system installed and how much it cost, but it hasn't worked. If anyone else has had one installed, can they let me know? We've just been hit with the news that we have to lose our lovely staircase or install sprinklers and need to bace ourselves for the extra cost. Thanks!

Reading this with interest. So far we have had quotes from 2 different companies for a loft conversion. One has said we have to change our doors and there is no getting around that - we can get 4 panel Victorian type doors but they will be new of course! Another company has said that we can get around this by having remote controlled smoke detectors in each of the downstairs rooms. I also know that one of our neighbours is currently arguing with the Building Regs people as they have used the fire retardant paint but building regs are not passing it. One of the companies told us that each council is interpreting the regs differently so what you can do in one area you maybe can't in another. Very complicated - anyone else had experience of this recently?

Mins - I would suggest you contact builing control at your council to see what they will insist on. Some councils (and indeed some inspectors) have allow things other wouldn't. Best to find out upfront.

My builder called building control when they were last here and that's when we found out about the enclosed staircase/sprinkler situation. We don't have an allocated building inspector yet and I've heard that they vary wildly within this one area - my mum and brother have had a guy who is very pragmatic and has common sense, but apparently there are a few new ones who stick to the letter of the law (not optimistic that we'll get the former). Just wanted to know if we'll have to abandon the whole idea if sprinklers are too expensive - really don't want to lose our doors and bannisters. Fingers crossed.

Yep - my advice is check, check, double check and expect the worst case scenario. DP is a builder and the interpretations vary drastically. Fire retairdant paint isn't usually enough most usually require you change all the doors ....and some want the sprinkler system too While for others it's just the sprinkler/ or doors.

our loft conversion company used an independent building inspector and we had smoke alarms in all rooms on the 1st and ground floor but the doors do have to be well fitting and no gaps. Also they advised closing your doors at night is the best thing you can do to protect yourself.

For anyone finding this thread on a google search and still interested, here's the norm when you do a loft conversion:

• if you have an open plan staircase (i.e. passes through a living area with no fire separation from that area), you'll need a sprinkler system in the open plan room
• if you don't have an open plan staircase, you probably won't have too many problems and won't be asked for sprinklers
• if you end up with more than one floor above 1st floor however, you'll probably end up needing sprinklers throughout the house and you won't be allowed open plan stairs.

If you are creating a fairly typical three-storey loft converted house, you will need at least the following to sail through building control:

• a fire door at the top of the staircase (at first floor level) to keep the first floor landing clear of smoke
• one or more escape windows at first floor
• a fire suppression / sprinkler system in the open plan room. This is not as bad as it might sound. For some companies to talk to, try googling: retrofit sprinkler loft conversion
• a kitchen separated from the the open plan area by a fire door

You might get some leeway from some approvers on the above points if they have a fire engineer in-house, notably open plan kitchens are fairly often accepted. However they all work to the same building regs.

We did our loft this year and just had to install smoke alarms and paint the doors with fire retardant paint.

I don't know if this thread is dead but here's a trickier situation. Any advice. I want to do a three-storey loft conversion.

It's a type 3 open plan which means the staircase on the ground floor is exposed to the kitchen. The loft also passes through some of the inner bedrooms on the second floor.

Even If I replace all the doors with fire doors because of the open plan layout on the ground floor, I'm struggling to get passed building control.
Is a automist sprinkler system going to be enough? I have no idea what to do