Loft conversion quote? For real? How can I check him out?

[pavlovthepregnantcat]

We had lots of quotes for our loft, spoke to lots of builders, and loft conversion specialists and the prices we have been given vary widely.

We have been given

£12,500 estimate - a general builder who tried to convince us we did not need steels and not to bother. He suggested structural engineer would persuade us. He is out.

£24-25k. Loft conversion specialists who seem to think we want some kind of palace up there, its an average size. Large team of men, obviously have large overheads. They are too expensive so they are out.

£18,300. Loft conversion specialist. To include his own plans, structural calculations and building, labour materials, to include one free skylight above the stairs (he is matching an old quote), and to include changing the banisters already in the flat to also meet building regs. Does not include skip hire, building regs fees and the cost of building regs to check it througout work being completed. They have a good reputation as local loft conversion specalists. They are a consideration.

So. then there is this one.

£15-17k, but needed the drawings and structural calculations to confirm quote, not including drawing/structural calculations/fees, but he recommended a guy to do this. The builder was recommended on-line by other people in the area. He spent time with us talking through exactly what we wanted. He appeared honest and genuine. He is a builder who does mostly lofts but other stuff too, so not a specalist per-se. He has given us his portfolio, is doing work right now, we can drop in any time we like to check out work being done.

£900 - drawings and structural calculations through the recommended structural engineer who worked for the council before setting up on his own. They will not be architectural drawings, but that is ok as we only want very very plain up there, but they will ensure building regs are met. He is independent to this builder, but they work on some of the same projects.

Anyway, the builder came to pick up his portfolio the other day, stopped for a cuppa, we had a chat. We talked about the quote from the company we are considering using. He was surprised they have come in so cheap as they are known for being pricey He said he thinks he can do it for the same, if not cheaper, as he has less overheads. We talk more about what we want, in more detail. He clearly needs the work, said so himself, made no bones about it being tough out there.

He has just phoned us and left a message. He and the structural engineer have been talking, and they have agreed that together, they will charge £16.5k for everything, to include structural calculations and drawings supplied by the engineer, building reg fees, skip hire, a fixed price quote.

We had already decided, really that we preferred him to the other co, as he was more personable, made more effort to know what we wanted and we feel we will have more control over what goes where as we can go through the guy doing the drawings. Builder said he will be employed by us, not him so he will do what we want not what he wants.

What should I check? He has all the insurances he needs. Sound good?

It sounds as though he would rather have some work for a little profit rather than no work for no profit.

You could ask him about other conversions he has done and see if you can look at one. His reaction will be a good clue to his working practices.

missmama - yes, he clearly does want the work. He is happy to do retrospective planning so as to start earlier, and I talked about our fears of what might happen should something be wrong and not pass building regs. He said we would up a contract as to what would happen in those incidents, the majority of it would be down to him/structural engineer to put right, but we would thrash out terms of that kind of thing before starting.

He is happy for us to go and look at all of his work. The job he is currently finishing off is a big one and he said, just pop along, whenever you want to, check it out and has given us the address.

I know we have to be careful about charm, does not make him a good builder. But I liked him. More than the others who were very 'we will do this and this and this, and you will pay this'

I agree with missmama and I would say from recent experience that building regs mean that you will need more than one velux up there (you will need another one in the main room not more than 1.4m from the bottom of the room that opens in a particular way as an escape window) so I'd be a bit about the £18k man.

Ask to visit someone whose lost he has finished recently and someone that he is doing at the moment (if he is doing one at the moment): either way, it will give you a clue about how quickly he works/how tidy he is/whether he follows up snagging etc.

Be careful about how you stage payments if you think he is desperate for work, he may end up trying to take a lot up front to pay existing debts.

We've had a similar situation recently - had a couple of quotes for a large-ish extension for £40-45K and one that was about £100K!! One of the cheaper guys in particular seems very nice, comes with great references (we've checked) and appears to know what he's talking about. We're crossing our fingers and going with him!

I think I was not clear about the skylights. We are having 2 medium velux up there, and the price included both of those, plus an additional small skylight to the top of the stairs, given that we need to have the stairs enclosed and have chosen for this to be done at the top.

It would be a bit dark with one lil window on the stairs!

daisy - it is difficult isn;t it? Obviously we don't want to be ripped off, but we don't want a cowboy either. The problem with the really cheap quote was that the guy was happy to put steels in, but felt we did not need them, and that in itself concerned me, as he was a general builder, this was not his field and he would not really know that without structural engineer involvement, an experienced loft converter maybe. Also he is estimating without building a floating floor, he is looking to just lay beams across the existing floor, and the building regs are so strict now, none of the others we have spoken to have said it would be possible to pass building control without a suspended floor (we are still waiting on another 3 builders to come back to us with prices, but know these are likely to be high, and two more who we did not like!).

As all the builders have come, we have asked so many questions we have learnt a lot about what is involved, what we need and I have also spoke to several structural engineers and two guys at building control. AND we have a Hains Loft Conversion Manual .

I do think that 16.5k is a good price, just worry that he has not got that much work that we have to wait 6 months like many of the others. He said 4 weeks to start - if we approve the quote we will get drawings done, sort out part wall act stuff etc and get started in 4 weeks. Perfect, but just feels a little too perfect!!!

We had our loft converted last year. I would definitely go with the loft conversion company. It's all they do, so know what to expect, how to deal with any problems, have all the materials sourced etc.

Plus, you need to know what will happen when, for instance, your shower starts leaking a year afterwards, what happens about roof tiles, any structural damage etc. If he's a one man band, he may not be willing to come back and do repairs.

Also, what happens if the plans go wrong? Sorry to bring this up, but it happened to a friend of mine a few years ago. She got an architect do do the drawings, and had a separate builder. Unfortunately the work was held up because the plans didn't work and she ended up having to pay a crew for a week to sit around drinking her tea while the architect sorted it out.

ilovemydog - the guy I like, he has a team, but does not market himself as a loft conversion specialist. He said there will be around 3 people on site at any one time. He also works closely with the structural engineer, they have worked with each other for 16 years and know how each other works. However the structural engineer works for himself and is not in the 'pocket' of this builder so I feel he is not just throwing work his way regardless. The engineer gave us another builder to check out too who he also works with.

The builder has stated that if the calculations are wrong, he will change them as his expense, and this will be in writing before we start. Although we will go for retrospective application, in that we put the application and we can start immediately, he will get the building control team to come around on the day we start, and then once the beams/floor are down to approve before continuing, so "if" there are errors, it will be easily fixed.

The only plumbing we are having up there is one radiator. It is currently a flat so its not worth the cost to add a shower room. We might get a toilet under the new stairs but if so we will get out own plumber to do that later (he will do a good deal for us as we have put work his way).

£25k is a lot of money! But I agree it is a good investment. We change our place from a 2 bed flat to a bed maisonette, and we increase the space in a climate that wont allow us to sell right now.

All I meant was that what happens re: maintenance? The loft conversion company we used guarantee work. So for instance, this morning, the shower had a leak, so they came out and repaired it. There was a tear in the felt in the roof and they came and repaired it, plus a few roof tiles.

What about electrics in other parts of the house/flat. We had to have smoke alarms installed in every room of the house as it's mandatory for new installations (or may be when erecting another floor?) Will he know about current regulations? Fire doors?

If he's a builder, then he should know all about current regulations...

Oh, and scaffolding. Included in price?

Word of advice. I was so thrilled when we were offered a cancellation slot and work started when DS was 6 weeks old. I don't know why I thought it would be a good idea. I really don't. All I remember is crying that there were 9 people (all wearing hard hats ) in my bedroom.

It's worth it though...

If something feels too perfect then just go back over everything and start ensuring you are in the driving seat.

My DP is a builder and often comes in cheaper than specialist conservatory companies but that's because his mark up isn't so huge. And like your guy, he's worked with certain architects and engineers for years.

My tips would be:

1. SEE his insurance documents....really important - should be for nothing less than 1 mill Public liability - we have 2 million as standard.

2. Go see his work...online recommendations are notorious in the trade - we have nothing to do with them - sorry.

3. make sure he agrees to a payment/work schedule plan and pay a small amount for goods etc up front - then payment on completion of each section of work completed. Do NOT give over shed loads of money up front...that sniffs of debts needing to be paid off and having no trade accounts.

4)Ensure any electrics will be partP registered and check plumber too.

5)As Ilovemydog says - check every little thing in the quote....scaffolding /skip / materials. All building materials (especially waste removal) has risen dramatically. Underquoting is the scurge of our business. It's one of the main reasons builder & clients fall out. The builder desperately wants to get the job so lures in with a silly quote that he knows he'll never be able to do it for but knows the client will part with the cash just to get the job done. Eventually the client gets upset and it all ends in stalemate....builder goes off the job and takes crew elsewhere until client pays up. Client then realises that the original quote was a joke. Nightmare.

All that said - there is a lot to be said for 'gut feelings' and if it's not a complex conversion there is probably no reason why he can't do it

Pavlov, have you done any visits to completed loft conversions done by any of your builders?

scaffolding - included. New fire doors for all doors except bathroom included, mains linked fire alarm throughout the house included. New regs insulation and soundproofing included. We talked about waste removal, he has a deal with some guy who removes it for him, included in cost.

He told us about the part p stuff for the electrics! We are going to have the electric box updated at the same time, and this is included in the price (there is a whatever its called box already here which is new but not used, was for electric storage heaters which we got rid of, will save us £1k as its all ready to go just needs whatever the electricians do it to, to do to it!).

So, what I need to look at now:

Guarantees - yes, really need to check this.
Go see his work. Got one visit scheduled for thursday and might just turn up on site tomorrow on his current job.
Insurance - have told him we want to see these before we accept. He said he has £5m public liability and £5m whatever one it is that covers if a builder falls through our ceiling! He has told us, if this was to happen, it would be put right immediately! (should hope so!).

I am feeling very excited .

Jalopy - not yet, we wanted to wittle it down to the ones we liked the best, the ones that actually stood a chance of being hired, and then go and look. We will absolutely go and look though.

I am pleased you said about the internet recommendations jeanjeanie i did not know that.

He does seem to know his stuff about building regs. We researched it before we looked, and learnt even more as we went along and made sure he talked about all the aspects of building regs, rather than us asking him if he knew about it. He appears to have a good relationship with building control but I am going to ask them direct!

oh sorry, one more thing. It seems to be standard with those I have spoken to to pay 10% up front, two installments throughout build, then final 10% to be paid upon completion of final building control check/certificate issued - does that sound about right?

We paid a bit each week with a £2k deposit (to cover structural engineer, planning and bldg regs application). They had to have achieved certain targets to get each weekly target and we retained 10% (forever as it turned out as they never finished off properly).

Payment schedule sounds about right, but never pay up if you're not happy with something.

Agree with Lala...hold back about 10% right at the end so the snag list is all finished to your spec.

thank you.

Just spoke to him, he will write up the full spec of what will be done for this price (inc 3 skylights!). He confirmed on the phone £16.5k is total cost for full build, and his write-up will confirm what that will be exactly.

So we have provisionally agreed the price, and will chat over a cup of tea once he has written up the details and we have looked over them to thrash out any details we disagree with, and once we have done this, and seen some of his work up front we will sign on the line!

excited!

jeanjeannie - so would you say it's a good sign if a builder doesn't ask for any money until the whole thing is finished to your satisfaction?

Answering instead of jj, I'm sure she will be back soon - I would feel uneasy with that arrangement. It just doesn't seem right and there seems to be too much room for repercussions if things didn't work out well.

Pavlo - that's great news! I'm all for going with the 'little man'!! I hope it's the start of a fabulous relationship and that you can recommend him onto others...let us know how it all goes and we want to hear good news!!

Daisy I'd say it was odd if a builder didn't ask for some money up front. He'd have to have one heck of a cash flow! Also, we treat it as a two way street - you need to be sure that the client is honest and hands over the money when they say they will. DP wouldn't do an entire job then ask for the cash....how would he know if they'd pay up? Plus, from a business angle, unless he finished the job and got paid before the trade bills for the materials came in then he'd have to fork out all that cash upfront.

Payments schedules are a good way to work because that keeps a dialogue going between builder and client and any problems, changes etc can be sorted asap.

I'm just wary that many builders who ask for money (especially cash) up front as they are usually those that have no trade accounts. Trade accounts are an indication that they've got a decent track record with their suppliers. Many 'rogue' builders just go to a local diy shop and are using cash to pay off debts or pocket and run It's just one of those professions which has been sadly tarnished.

X-post...yep, once again, I agree with lala!

jeanjeanie - we had an outfit in Plymouth that did exactly that. They started out with a relatively successful small business, got into debt, and ended up taking large deposits of clients, not starting the work and running. He now lives in spain, being sued by a lot of people .

I do feel this is a good choice, but boy its not easy is it? To be sure we have to choose the specialists who have a good reputation 7But^ charge for that. But it does not mean good builders are not out there.

For this price, we will be happy for him to add pictures to his portfolio, and I am guessing this is worth something in itself. We have also mentioned plans to do the odd bit of work here and there to the flat in the future, so there is more work there for him if he does well. It is always worth knowing a good builder and we think it might be him. I really hope so!

I will keep people posted, thanks for the advise and support everyone x

Thanks for the answers - I'm not sure whether this is what our builder intends to or not, it was just something mentioned by one of his previous clients when I phoned to check for references, but I might have misunderstood.