Shared chimney dispute with landlord and Party Wall notice

[Andreaoid]

Hi, I am coming to you all for a piece of advice as I am not originally from the UK and I am not sure how to protect myself.

I own a house that shares a chimney stack with a rental house. I contacted the EA about the need for repair of the chimney stack and they kept fobbing me off for over 4 months (since Jan 2), excusing the slowness by the owner needing yet another quote.

So, last week I paid for a land registry report, got the owners name and address, got a builders quote for removal and erection of a new chimney stack and posted a formal Party Wall notice through the landlord's letter box. They now have 14 days to respond. And voila, first thing in the morning I got a call from the EA asking for my reasoning behind a need for complete rebuild - the brickwork is crumbling, bits of brick are falling down and the stack had been obviously dropped down by a several inches before me owning the house.

The EA told me the owner is looking for an amicable resolution (4 months of hostile ignorance!) and they shared with me a quote for £800 to drop the chimney down by three quarters and make good on the rest. So, basically leaving an ugly stump. I told them I actually use my chimney (open fire). My 1st question: is it legal to have approx. 15 inches tall chimney stack and use it for actual fire? I assume not!

Second question, I believe the landlord will try to beat me to a cheap quote/job but I want to sell the house next year so a decent stack is necessary. The LL is also in his 70s but a chartered surveyor (and partner of the estate agency) as is the EA who called me and 'explained' if we need a surveyor we should go for a shared one. Because of the connections both of these men have in our town, I do not trust the surveyor process.

What are my options? How do I go about all of this? Any advice?

Re the safety, might not have understood so apologies if that is the case, but could the flue (if you have one, could you install one if not?) extend above the short stump of the brick chimney stack?
Or do away with the chimney (bit that is protruding from the roof top) and just have a flue? Less to maintain for future owners.

I would have thought it would be dangerous to not have a flue with fumes and smoke potentially leaking into both houses. I mean given the state of the bit of the chimney you can see, I suspect the bit you can't might also be compromised.

Re the LL and EA, as long as the work is signed off, I wouldn't worry seeing as you are going to sell.

Shared chimney stacks are a nightmare so you have my sympathy.

Good point but I'm also worried about sellability of the house. It's an end of terrace and everyone else has a nice chimney in the front. If the stack in question was in the back, I wouldn't mind. But it's the one you can see from the front and a curb appeal is a thing.

How much more is your quote to rebuild? I wouldn't have thought that much more. I mean you still have to pay for scaffold, still have to pay to take the old bricks down and dispose of them, it's just the rebuilding cost and flaunching and putting new pots in. Can't be vastly different, can it?

It actually is. Mine was around £3.5k for the full thing - scaffold, taking down, waste taken away, rebuild to the original spec, etc. Theirs was £800 to take 3/4th of the chimney down. That price doesn't even cover scaffold in my area so I am not sure how they got it (plus the EA claimed it's already too high for the LL when I called them months ago but I didn't even know the figure!). It must be some cowboy job on a ladder I assume.

If you google you’ll find advice on how high chimney stacks need to be legally. It depends where it is on the roof - eg low down on up by the ridge.

Wow! The figures in my head were way off but a quick look round the internet suggest £3.5k is ok. I think you are right about the £800 job and cowboys with a ladder.
In your situation, as unfair as it would be, I'd offer to pay £3k and get them to pay £500 (£100 more than they would with their quote). Otherwise you'll just be in stalemate because they clearly don't care and, as you say, it will affect the kerb appeal if you go with their suggestion.
Hope you get it resolved!

Genuine question - can you actually force someone to do repairs they don't want to do? Legally, I mean? How does that work if someone simply can't afford it? And do you have the right to force the more expensive repair, rather than the cheaper one?

When it gets into a dispute (in 14 days), we need to appoint a shared surveyor or one each who will place an award (like a report what needs to be done, etc.) and we need to do it. If not, we can go further legal route - get solicitors involved, insurance, etc. I can also involve the council who will come and assess the damage (crumbling chimney is a dangerous structure especially on my street that ends with a primary school for 3-7yr olds). They can force repairs - not necessarily the most expensive ones but we both need to be ok with the resolution.
To your point of no money, it's a party wall so that's the nature of things. You can't just ignore the issue because it can cause further damage to your neighbour's house.

I cannot wait to move out and find an area where people give a shit about their houses.

No! No LL will ever sponge off me. I will rather take it further than let them win.

But thanks for crosschecking the numbers. £800 makes no sense.

Council is a good call. As is finding out if the stump they want is of legal height as pp suggested. And insurance.
I'd caution about getting solicitors involved. If you take your builder's quote, you'd be paying £1,750, if you do as I suggested and they agree, you'd be paying £1,250 more.
Don't underestimate how much solicitors cost and how little they actually resolve,
I wish you well, it's a nightmare situation. Shared structures should never have been put in place imho!
PS I'm a landlord - we're not all bad!

Ah OK, I've never known party walls in that capacity, only in the context of if I wanted to do work, I'd be indemnifying the shared party wall owner for any damage that my work caused to their property, with the costs of both surveyors, the work and any remedial works being covered by the person wanting to do the work (as in doing an extension by the party wall etc.)

So in theory, could your next door neighbour decide he wanted to remove the chimney (to make safe), and force you to pay half the costs?

In any case, it all sounds mighty expensive to hire all the surveyors and potentially start legal action, and I would doubt you'd be able to force him to pay for more than "making safe". Plus you'd end up with a dispute registered that you'd have to declare when you come to sell.

Unfair as it may seem, I'd suggest your best bet is what a PP suggested, ask him for £500 and cover the rest yourself. That way you get the job done, in the way and to the standard you want, and it'll likely end up cheaper than going the legal dispute route.

Have a look at this OP (from a surveyor's website). I'm not sure you can force him to do the work. (Happy to be proved wrong, though, I have no expertise in the matter).

"Chimneys tend to be more exposed to the weather than other parts of a property and therefore prone to defects such as eroded pointing, spalled brickwork and cracked flaunching. When repairing defects of this type, providing safe access by means of scaffolding or a cherry picker will make up a significant proportion of the cost. For this reason there are obvious benefits in the whole of a defective shared stack being repaired at the same time but as each owner is responsible for the maintenance of their half neither can force the other to participate.

Shared chimney stacks are not ‘party’ i.e. the two owners do not have rights over the whole structure – there is likely to be a party wall within the stack separating the flues of the two owners but that is not normally the defective element as it is protected from the weather."

https://www.peterbarry.co.uk/blog/repairing-removing-shared-chimney-stacks/

My internet says: A shared chimney stack is generally considered part of a party structure under the Party Wall etc. Act 1996 if it sits astride the boundary line (line of junction) between two properties. It is treated as a shared structure with joint maintenance obligations, meaning you must serve notice to your neighbour before starting any repairs or removal works.

So, neither of us can do anything without approval or agreement with one another. And you can't repair only a half of a stack (your side) so the point you used above is moot.

As I said, I have no expertise, but my quote came from the website of specialist uk surveyors, as opposed to just a google search.

I think what I'd take from this is that you might need to take actual real life advice from a party wall surveyor before heading in hard.

Party wall surveyors are scammers, not regulated apparently. I need a RICS surveyor and even then it's a bit iffy as there are no consequences to their actions.

But everyone is right in that the whole thing will be a massive ball ache. Fun for me, I guess!

No, chartered surveyors (like the one I quoted) are regulated and absolutely not scammers.

Neighbour's Rights and Responsibilities
When a chimney stack is shared between two properties, each owner is responsible for their portion of the stack. This includes maintenance, repairs, and ensuring the stack remains in good condition. If you want to remove or repair a shared stack, you'll need to consider your neighbour's rights and preferences.

The Party Wall Act of 1996
The Party Wall Act 1996 governs shared structures, such as chimney stacks, in the UK. It requires homeowners to notify their neighbours before undertaking any work on a shared structure. Failure to comply with the Act can result in legal action and potential fines.

Here's what another regulated surveyor says.

Seriously. Take advice from a chartered surveyor rather than AI, Google and especially not Roofing Companies or Builders.

My reading on it, is that you are responsible for the repairs to your half of the chimney stack will be up to you to pay for, you can't force him to repair his half, and you'll have to serve party wall notice, making you responsible for the costs of his surveyors and your own. Your £3500 job has probably gone up to around £5/6K, all of which you'll be responsible for, and only your half of the chimney stack will be getting repaired.

Seriously, seek advice from a chartered surveyor before alienating your neighbour, or this could cost you £££.
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I've already served them a notice, they need to decide if they want to be amicable or not. So the ball is in their court. And I totally agree with what your last message said. If I'm repairing my half as my responsibility, they need to repair theirs. We can't do it without one another as that's not how stacks work. That's all.

I want to be amicable but that doesn't mean doing something to protect the LL's bottom line. His balance sheet is not my problem. This is my home, not a cash cow.

But just a note re: surveyors. Party wall surveyors do not need to chartered. But RICS surveyor do, and they can specialise in party wall stuff.

Starting to lose sympathy to be honest. Yes, the LL wants to protect their bottom line and you shouldn't have to help him do that but, believe me, that may be your best course of action. He can delay and frustrate and cost you money, far better to reach an 'amicable' agreement, even if that means you taking a hit. Sometimes you have to play the long game and keep it 'amicable' even though in reality it is anything but.
But further, part of the reason you want to get the job done in the way you want to is to maximise the profit and saleability when you sell next year. So you are also 'guilty' of wanting to protect your bottom line.

I totally get that and thanks for the perspective. But I didn't say anything about profit when selling. I just want to sell tbh and get out of the house. Today's market is hard so crumbling chimney won't cut it when selling.
We bought the house with my late husband 5 years ago but he died a year and a half ago and I need to find my own way again at 35. Memories are hard so I crave new beginnings.

But both the RICS solicitors I've quoted say that it's your responsibility to repair your side and you can't make him contribute (or repair his side). In fact, under the party wall act, if you cause damage to his side, whilst repairing your side, you're liable for rectification at your own cost. Plus also you are responsible for his and your surveyor costs.

FWIW, I think it's not an easy thing to research as so much of the info is wordy, legal and convoluted, but you really need to take advice from a surveyor before proceeding.

I think you have severely misunderstood the legislation, and are on a path to costing yourself many thousands of pounds and ending up with a neighbour dispute to declare to prospective buyers as well.

Do I think he's an arsehole to not split reasonable costs so the whole chimney can be repaired? Yes, absolutely. A good neighbour would.

Do I think you can legally force him? No, I don't think you can, but I think you need advice from a RICS surveyor, as I really don't have expertise in this area.

Based on previous PWAs that we've had, I think "being in dispute" (which you now are) is simply that before you carry out your work (at your cost), you now need to pay for party wall surveyors for him and for you, both at your cost, beczuse he hasn't given you permission to work adjacent to the party wall. I think you've scored a massive own goal by not taking proper advice.

I hope I'm wrong though, and I wish you luck, as arsehole neighbours are hard to deal with.

I've very sorry to hear that @Andreaoid
And it's completely understandable why you want to leave but I guess don't as well at the same time.
Your neighbour sounds like a dick too.
All I'm saying is don't cut off your nose to spite your own face.
Best of luck and I hope you find happier times ahead 🙂

For anyone still interested, I just discovered that our houses are in a conservation area of our town. So, I believe we are not allowed to drop the chimney without the towns planning permission. The plot thickens.

You are correct.

Omg!!!! The landlord has consented to my quote!!!!!!! I guess the worry of a planning permission, surveyors and other massive costs has changed their mind. Massive win for this little lady!!! GET IN!!!! 😬