Anyone else found the whole planning permission process completely opaque?

[WittyNavyFinch]

We're looking at a loft conversion and I've been trying to work out whether it's likely to get approved before we spend a boatload on architect drawings. Spoke to the council and got basically nothing useful.

So I've been looking at what our council has actually approved and refused over the last few years. Turns out you can see every application on their planning portal... what was proposed and whether it got through.

The patterns are quite interesting. Our council approves about 88% overall but it varies massively by area — one ward near us is 95%, another is 75%. And loft conversions have a noticeably lower approval rate than rear extensions, which I wasn't expecting!

I've ended up doing this for quite a few councils now so if anyone's going through the same thing and wants me to have a look at their area, happy to. Just drop your postcode and what you're planning.

Pay for a pre-app and discuss it with them properly. Then you will have some guidelines to work with when you brief an architect, or technical drawer.

There is far more behind any decision than a simple approved or refused outcome based on how much coffee the planning officer has had the morning they read the application!!!

Yes, look up similar properties for inspiration or to understand more, but that has no relevance on if yours is approved or not!.

I'm not sure what the purpose of viewing so many un-related applications is.

You have posted your research before. It is not useful at all - projects don't have an 88% chance of approval, they get approval if they meet the policy and guidance. Most local architects will know what is going to meet the policy and guidance.

And applications have been online for around 20 years. Before that, people could just drop in to the planning office and request to see specific applications and drawings.

There is a lot more to approval and refusal of planning applications than "oh, lots of these have been approved by this council before". Conservation areas, listed buildings, and removal of Permitted Development Rights also influence determination.

Level of approval rates is more of a reflection on the level and standard of proposal applied for than the council officer making a decision.

Most loft conversions don't even need planning permission, so that will skew the results. It will be the larger ones, and the ones with dormers on front roofs slopes etc that require PP, and those ones will involve issues that mean a refusal is more likely - visual impact, loss of privacy, impact on the character of the property and the area etc.

Refusal rates will vary across a Council area because there are different issues at play - some areas may be Conservation Areas, AONBs etc, some may be in the Green Belt, some will be a specific type of development eg Victorian terrace vs new build estate.

Every planning application is different - the same policies within a Council area will be applicable, but because no two sites are the same it is possible to end up with different decisions. Planning is not opaque. Policies are publicly available, applications are publicly available, reports and decisions are also publicly available. Get yourself a qualified planning consultant (RTPI registered) who will be able to give you advice.

Most local architects will have a good idea about what is likely to get through and what isn't. Often the devil is in the detail, and sometimes the applicants know they are pushing it (if you don't ask, you don't get approach) but just take a chance and are prepared to dial it back if needed. When we applied for our extension we knew one aspect was 50/50 - in the end it was approved with modifications.

Fair points and I agree that a blanket approval rate doesn't tell you whether your application will succeed. Policy compliance is what matters, and a decent architect who knows the local authority is the best investment you can make.

Where I think the data adds something is before you get to that stage. If you're deciding between a loft conversion and a rear extension, and your ward has a 20 percentage point gap in approval rates between the two, that's a useful signal. It doesn't mean one is guaranteed and the other doomed, but it tells you something about what the council tends to support in your area.

Same with refusal patterns. If 40% of refusals in your council cite "overbearing" and only 5% cite "materials", that tells you where to focus your design effort.

You're right that conservation areas, listed buildings and PD removal change everything. Those are exactly the reasons ward-level data is more useful than headline council averages.

No doubt pre-app is probably the single best 200-300 pounds you can spend if you're serious about a project. No disagreement there.

The bit I'd push back on slightly is "that has no relevance on if yours is approved or not." In my opinion, looking at what's been refused near you does have relevance. Not because it predicts your outcome, but because it tells you what the council consistently objects to in your area. If 8 out of 10 refused loft conversions in your ward cite "front dormer out of character with the streetscene", that's useful info to know before you've spent a penny on drawings. No?

Pre-app gives you one officer's view on one specific proposal. The historical data gives you the broader picture of what that council tends to support and what it doesn't. They complement each other. I wouldn't suggest skipping pre-app in favour of data, but equally I wouldn't spend £300 on pre-app without knowing the patterns first.

The coffee comment made me laugh though! I'd love to see if there's a Monday morning vs Friday afternoon approval rate difference. Might check that :)

Yeah, I take your point about PD skewing the loft conversion numbers. The ones that actually need planning permission are trickier by definition, so the approval rate will naturally be lower..

And yes, ward variation is the bit I find most useful. A council-wide average is pretty meaningless if you're in a conservation area.

I'd push back a bit on "planning is not opaque" though... for you, clearly not! But for a first-time homeowner who's never opened a local plan in their life, working out which policies apply to their specific proposal isn't exactly intuitive. Not everyone's ready to drop a few hundred pounds on a consultant before they've even decided whether the project's worth pursuing. Sometimes you just want a quick check first.

Yeah, totally agree. A solid local architect who's been through the process dozens of times is worth their weight in gold. They'll know things no dataset can tell you, like which officers are stricter on certain things or how the committee tends to lean.

The "push it and dial back" approach is really common in the data. You can see it in councils where the approval-with-modifications rate is high. It suggests applicants (or their architects) are deliberately starting ambitious and expecting negotiation. Sounds like that's what worked for you! :)

I think where the data (I'm gathering) is most useful is before you've even picked up the phone to an architect. Just the "is this broadly realistic or am I dreaming" stage.

Mate, you are looking at planning from a data focus and not from a planning focus.

You don't need to be chapter and verse on local plan policy. Talk to the council, a planning consultant or just talk to an architect/builder/architectural technician. Someone who is able to advise on what best works for your property and complies with the local policy and guidance. If you cannot afford a few hundred pounds to discuss first options, you cannot afford an extension.

Also, I had a look at your website. The information is out of date. It entirely reduces planning permission to data certainty and percentages of likelihood. And you want people to pay £79 for a data drop based pdf report.

You haven't found a cheat code for house holder planning applications. You have monetised something that is not useful.

Also, planning officers in councils are consistent. You aren't going to get some officers who are more lenient on some things and have another officer who is stricter on the same things for an identical house. Officers apply policies, regulations and legislation consistently.

The subjective consideration comes down to whether a specific project complies with policy and guidance. Not whether a planning officer feels like they like one element of an extension and grants approval or recommends approval for all identical applications.

It is ok if you don't know how planning works. Totally fine. Maybe best to speak to those who do (eg the council planners, or a planning consultant or an architect).

And also, planning applications will go through the hands of several officer (and possibly a Committee of Councillors) before the final decision is made - Case Officer, Team Leader, Head of Development Control (or similar titles). This ensures that there is a uniform application of policies throughout an area.

Ae you trying to monetising planning outcome data? This is the second post about it. Whilst interesting I don't think it's going to earn you much.

Most loft extensions are under permitted development unless an article 4 area.

The planning portal is the place to start understanding whether planning and building controls are needed.
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/

Wow,.. I appreciate the directness! :)

On the out of date point, I'm curious what looked wrong? I'm trying to pull from live council portals weekly. 2.5m decisions across 225 councils as of this week. If a specific council's data looks off, please let me know.

On whether it's useful,... I think we disagree on who it's for. You clearly know planning inside out, so it wouldn't tell you anything you don't already know. But most homeowners don't know what a local plan is, let alone which SPDs apply to their proposal. For someone who just wants to know "is a loft conversion realistic on my street" before they spend anything at all, I think there's value in that. But if you disagree, that's fine!

I'd respectfully disagree that all officers apply policy identically. I think most people who've been through the process more than once would as well. But that's fine, we can disagree on that.

I do know how planning works, but I appreciate the concern! Happy to leave it here. I think we've both made our points and anyone reading can make up their own mind.

Guilty as charged! Yes, there's a paid report option alongside the free check. Whether it earns anything remains to be seen!

You're right that most loft conversions fall under PD. The ones that don't, stuff like front dormers, conservation areas, flats, Article 4 are where it gets interesting because those are the ones people are most anxious about.

Planning Portal is a great starting point for understanding the rules. What it doesn't really help with is "what has my council actually approved on streets like mine" which is the bit I was trying to figure out for myself originally.

I think you are trying to be objective - planning, or at least the decision making process, is not. Yes, the same policies are applied, but as every site is different, the same proposal will not necessary have the same outcome when those policies are applied. The planning system treats every application in its own merits for a reason.

I really can't see any benefit in the approach you are taking.

If people are willing to invest in extending their property, and really can't work out the process and issues concerned, a few hundred quid spent in a professional planning consultant is going to be money well spent (and no, architects often don't know the ins and outs of the planning system).

Some things are specifically not allowed in very specific areas, we are not allowed to change the front roof line, including any front loft extensions because it would change the look of the road although you can do it at the back. One neighbour was told he couldn't add an upstairs to his bungalow, but he could knock it down and build a house (because the road is mixed bungalows and houses), which he did, some of it is a bit barmy.

The easiest way to guess what might be allowed is to see what other people have done local to you, what's allowed the other side of town may be irrelevant.

Among other things loft extensions add a lot of weight to existing foundations and also often fall foul of fire safety rules. A rear extension has it's own foundations that will be to modern standards and suitable for the structure and they don't pose any extra fire risk so I'm not particularly surprised the loft extensions fall foul of planning more often.

If you talk to your architect they should know what will or won't be accepted and they often have contacts in the planning office they can check with.

Appreciate the feedback. I think where we agree is that a planning consultant is the best money you can spend if you're serious about a project.

Interesting you say architects often don't know the ins and outs of planning, I've heard that from a few people now. All the more reason to do some homework before committing to anything!

Appreciate the thoughtful response, genuinely.

Yeah, "see what other people have done local to you" is basically the whole idea of what I'm doing. And your point about what's allowed one side of town being irrelevant to the other is spot on. That's why council-wide averages are pretty meaningless and the ward-level stuff is where it gets interesting.

The bungalow story is case in point as to how baffling it can be at times!

Absolutely, a good local architect who's been through the process with your council multiple times is worth every penny.

Interesting you say architects often don't know the ins and outs of planning, I've heard that from a few people now. All the more reason to do some homework before committing to anything!

It's like going to a solicitor to sort your will, and thinking while your there he can do your accounts.
Or going to the dentist and asking him to have a look at a painful finger.
They are different professions.

Architects should have a good knowledge of planning. And building control. See RIBA stage 3.
Specialist planning consultants have a place for unusual projects.

An architect requires a degree in architecture, a planner requires a degree in town and country planning. As a planner it was not my job to design the building, but to assess the proposal in front of me, and all proposals must be judged on their own merits. Neither the planner or the architect has any knowledge or control over any rights removed within your deeds. Building control is different again. Which is where the data is completely useless. As a planner I could approve something that structurally cannot exist, maybe it has no lintels, it doesn't comply with energy efficiency standards, the walls are made of marshmallow, I don't know or care, the how it is built is not my domain, all I look at is the impact on the neighbours, the streetscene etc. The street behind where I live almost every house has a front dormer, my street has zero. Same house type. Most likely a couple will have been built on that street without permission and by the time the council got an application for one they went on a site visit and thought 'it's an existing feature in the street scene, the existing ones are too old or not worth taking enforcement action against so I'll approve this one'. If I applied the judgement would be different because it's not inkeeping with my streetscene. Planning authorities don't track the percentage of rear extensions approved vs percentage of side extensions for a reason, it has no relevance to the next application, there's no quota to fill or liklihood of it changing the next application's outcome. Every application is judged on it's own merits, using the years of study and experience from a qualified planning officer, which will then be double checked at a minimum by the development manager that their opinion concurs with the officers.

Really appreciate this! Useful perspective from someone who's been on the other side of the desk.

You've actually described exactly why local precedent matters: your street has zero front dormers, the street behind has loads, and you'd get a completely different outcome because of it. That's kind of the whole point of looking at nearby decisions before you apply - not national averages, but what's actually happened on your street and the streets around it.

And you're right that every application is judged on its own merits. But those merits are assessed against local context - the streetscene, what's already there, what's been approved nearby. So knowing what your council has said yes and no to isn't a crystal ball, but it's a lot better than going in blind.

That's basically what I've been building (shameless plug!) - a tool that pulls together real planning decisions near your property so you can see the patterns before you spend thousands on an architect. Not a replacement for professional advice, just the homework beforehand :)