Replacing windows in Grade II listed home

[Fl0weryTwats]

Our original timber windows are falling to bits and probably won’t last more than another year or so, they are unfortunately long past repair they are also single-glazed and letting in draughts where the timber is compromised. We are planning to replace them as sympathetically as possible whilst keeping the house insulated so will be submitting a planning application to upgrade them. Previous owners have already replaced some of the windows with uPVC, although I’m not sure I’ve ever seen paperwork for them. My bedroom can be 10 degrees at night in the winter because of these bloody windows!

Has anyone been granted permission to upgrade existing windows to uPVC?

It’s not common, it’s the exception. Magnetic secondary glazing is totally credible and proven and cost effective

My mum lives in a Grade II listed farmhouse (noted in the Doomsday Book of 1086) and replaced approx 20 rotten single glazed windows a few years ago.
Permission was actually quite simple as we didn’t need full planning permission just listed building consent. We made sure to submit a pre planning application to find out what the council would or wouldn’t accept in terms of upgrading to double glazing, like for like designs and choice of hardwood. The council suggested secondary glazing on 2 of the very oldest windows (one with lead diamonds and one with iron bars across the glass) so they didn’t actually get replaced but glazing installed in front of the original windows.
All windows had to be individually drawn to submit alongside the listed building consent as none of the windows were identical but the carpenter did this for us.
I would absolutely recommend double glazing.
As for the comments of letting the building breathe, most older houses have other draughts. The front door of my mums house is hung on iron gate hooks and I can fit my hand through the gaps and see light - we cover the front door with a blanket in winter to slow down the draught. The house still breathes, just a little less and it’s more comfortable to live in.

Edited just to add that it was eye wateringly expensive - about £30,000. Without an inheritance she couldn’t have afforded it and probably would have make done and mended the rot.

I have a listed house and there is absolutely no way I’d get permission for plastic windows … and rightly so. It would be a crime to install them ! When I wanted to replace windows I had to submit technical drawings including a cross section of the mouldings of the (timber) frames.

@Fl0weryTwats just want to clarify that you understand any changes you make to the fabric or look of your home require LBC or LBC and PP. this includes floors, roofs, plumbing, electrics. You can replace 5ish roof tiles, no more. You can replace a light switch, not re wire a room. You can put carpet over a floor, you can’t take up the floor.
making changes without permission is classified as causing criminal damage and is prosecutable and enforcement to revert in a short time frame highly likely. Also, anyone buying your home will expect to see permission and be reluctant to take on without a reduction in sale price to cover the cost of rectifying your work.
You seem to have a massive lack of understanding of this which is concerning to me and potentially very costly for you.

Double conservation glazing isn’t guaranteed at all. It depends on the historic nature of existing glass and also the CO. Recommend all you want, it’s a very naive statement and shows a comprehensive lack of understanding of listed properties.

Changes to a listed building without Planning Consent do not become lawful or exempt from Enforcement action after 10 years because it’s a criminal offence not just a planning breach.

Please could you explain why asking the local listed buildings conservation officer for advice about what I can do to my listed home ‘wouldn’t go well’?

Not sure I’m keen on your tone, are you usually this rude and condescending to people asking for help? I haven’t ’done anything without permission’ in the five years I’ve owned my home.

My current windows are falling to pieces. If someone is able to restore the existing ones, then that’s great! I’m just being realistic in my expectations that it’s probably going to be an expensive replacement.

You will not get permission for upvc but you may get slimline double glazing or vacuum glazing. Look at historic England’s advice note 18. You need to justify the change and I would recommend a professional help & advise

https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/adapting-historic-buildings-energy-carbon-efficiency-advice-note-18/

I didn’t say double conservation glazing was guaranteed. I suggested the OP start a dialogue with her local authority using pre planning advice to see what her options were within the law. If OP is able to obtain permission for double glazing then I would recommend it.

Agree there is no ten year rule for listed buildings. They sit under a different planning act

I just checked the actual listing on the Heritage website. The building itself was listed before the interior was converted into individual cottages, so it’s difficult to tell what work is allowed and what isn’t as the interior as it is didn’t exist until the building had already been listed.

I hate this house more and more with each passing day

We recently got permission to put slimline double glazing into a grade II listed Tudor cottage.

I suggested you took time to understand what you were dealing with and did your research before submitting a pre planning application to discuss with the CO.

I am sorry if you didn’t like my tone, from what I read you were not listening/wanting to listen/didn’t care about or comprehend what your listings means. From my perspective you are not, as you state, being realistic at all. You may get what you want, it may be easy for you: for managing your expectations what you are asking in this post won’t be easily approved and you need a full and comprehensive LBC application.

We were given permission for double glazing timber windows because the previous owners had double glazing, despite not having permission. Took a bit of work on submitting detailed design specs but they agreed to a specialist supplier with very thin panels. They're great.

It’s listed so LBC or LBC and PP are required for any work except minor repairs regardless of when and how the interior was last remodelled.

That usually make no difference to the process, but if the windows are not original it does make it much more likely that at least double glazing will be allowed. The process operates on express LBC permission for any and all alterations, even if nothing original remains of the interiors. Our COs are very nice and have been very helpful, they just want to see you understand your obligations and are making reasonable alterations.

Nope. I actually didn’t try, but when I replaced my leaking window in my grade II listed cottage I had to go through hoops to get listed building consent. Get a cross section of the window casing drawn and have the window made bespoke. It also had to still be single glazed! Though I have heard of some getting permission for double. Be warned - they did visit my house and if I had any with uPVC they could have made me change them - if the previous owners did thus without consent it’s still your responsibility to correct it. It’s actually a criminal offence to alter a listed building without consent (cosmetic changes excepted).

Agree
remember OP
you aren’t in a position to just say they are rotten
They could be saved
Its about preserving the historic fabric
You will need a professional survey as @Tortephant says
from someone who deals with historic windows / timber

The conservation officer will want professional advice on how / if they can be saved.

We were allowed to replace ours with timber sash windows with slim profile double glazing.

We did hire a heritage consultant and he helped us get permission. I agree that it's ridiculous to make people spend lots of money on energy inefficient single glazing.

Just because the interior didn’t exist when the building was listed it’s protected now by the fact that it has been listed. Please don’t make any changes to your home without checking with your local authority first. LBC is free to obtain, it’s really not worth the trouble to carry out any works first.

You will probably need to pay for pre planning advice and then submit permission for listed buildings consent. This is free but there is quite a lot of forms to fill out which is annoying and you have to have drawings of the windows and photos of the current windows and a plan drawing of the outside of the house. You also need a heritage statement for the building, but I just got chat gpt to help with that and it was OK. The planning people are generally nice to listed building owner who are trying to follow the complicated rules.
As @QuietLifeNoDrama says, it doesn't matter that the interior isn't on the listing and is from the 1970s. It is all listed, as are any walls or buildings in the garden if you have one. So you should get permission for anything where you are just not replacing like for like. So new singled glazed identical wooden windows would be OK legally but double glazing will need permission.

Have you checked for the LBC when it was converted
There will be very detailed information on what was done