Help! Shower waste level trouble - how to adjust this copper to cast iron junction? (Pics)

[bickering]

Any plumbing advice please?

I’m trying to DIY fit my bathroom - taking out a half size bath and installing a big shower 1100x760. It’s not massive but it’s a really small bathroom (probably smaller than many en suites?!)

Anyway in the picture the top of the cast iron drain is roughly floor level and theres a copper connection pipe which turns into the top of it.

The connection is solid but by the time it passes through the wall (300mm (?) away) the underside of the pipe is 80mm above the floor!

By the time i add the fall (40-50mm depending on where I measure from) my shower tray might be 220-250mm off the floor. Making the headroom only 2m which is a bit rubbish.

I spoke to some bathroom fitters who want to charge £5-£7.5k to do the work (on top of fittings)… but this is a tiny room and my budget won’t stretch to that. So I’ll need to go DIY - Ive got the tools and can tackle a lot of things but this connection is new to me - seems like a standard 1960s/70s detail?

If I can release the copper pipe out of the cast iron I was thinking I could use a plastic fitting (as pictured) to save around 50mm of height on the tray… but how to release the copper pipe from the cast iron?

Anyone seen anything similar and have any tips please?

thanks!

Sorry I wasn’t clear - yes upvc is the plan for putting back but I expect I’ll need to pack the joint again in a similar way but with modern materials

44 cutter sounds good, go slow and steady on the iron, it should cut to a fine grey powder.

you could pack it with modern blue nylon rope using CT1 sealant instead of lead - the seal only has to keep the smells out as gravity should be pulling the water down.

Do you have a good enough drill? Do you need to drill a pilot hole first?

Based on my youtube watching this evening I should drill slowly using a good quality core drill - which has a pilot drill within it - and lots of lubricant. It is in an awkward place so I will need to double check I can get my drill close enough to the back face where I have made the hole through the wall... nervous!

It’s been a week. What’s the latest?

Seconded 😂

I was wondering about this as I cursed through cutting through my own downpipe! (with much better access than OP)

Thanks @KatiePricesKnickers @AnSolas and @CatherinedeBourgh for your follow up!

I had hoped to be attempting the drilling today... but got waylaid building a timber frame elsewhere that has to be in place before the new boiler is installed in just over a week. I managed to fix 3 out of the 5 bits of timber which need to be placed accurately - and consumed 3 cups of tea. Not a great work ratio of tea to bits of wood fixed 😂I can't decide if I am just slow/useless or procrastinating.

I shall be back on the drain pipe on Thursday/Friday. My dad has agreed to give me a hand fitting the bathroom. My plan had been to get the pipe resolved before he came to avoid wasting lots of time "discussing" disagreeing about how to tackle the job.

On the other hand I am very much enjoying my new drywall props. Bought to install a small area of plasterboard ceiling but used today to temporarily hold a wall plate at high level. I doubt the cast iron pipe will be quite so pleasing... I'll report back xx

ETA in my defence my trusty battery drill died on Saturday which is why the timber framing was so badly delayed while I traipsed off to Screwfix for a nice new one.

Which dry wall props do you have?

I got these ones
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B09FPS3CMX

Spec:

• Positive clamp system
• 1140-2895mm extension
• 30kg max load

Not sure I’d trust them at 2.8m tall. They looked a bit slender at just under 2.4m

Update - Change of plan - now armed with a reciprocal saw and a carbide blade (or 2!). Will be attempting a cut down tomorrow. Feeling nervous - wish me luck!

Update - in the end my dad came to help and did a heroic effort using a reciprocal saw and sliced the top off the cast iron. All I can say is that the YouTube videos make this a lot easier than it is in reality! It took hours…

We can now drop a 90 degree waste fitting into the top of the cast iron and it will be fairly snug. The bottom of the waste pipe will then be about 35mm above the structural slab - rising 40mm in the 2m across to the shower in a channel Ive cut in the 50mm screed.

If my calculations are correct the 50mm deep shower tray will sit 75mm above the screed - so maybe 65-70mm above the final finished floor depending on what flooring i go for. I’ll need to cut out a bit of the screed to fit the shower trap but overall the tray will be much lower than I’d ever hoped! This is a fabulous result - thanks all for your suggestions and support!

While the pipe sawing was going on, I managed to get the setting out and level benchmarks in around the bathroom plus started the timber framing for the pipe boxings. So tomorrow will be hopefully finishing off the boxing out and dry fitting the waste. If we make good progress maybe also hanging the concealed cistern.

Good progress!

I wonder if the collar is cast thicker than the pipe?
in any case, great work!

Woohoo @bickering congratulations to your Dad and you.
I love watching DIY on youtube but things always take so much longer than you think for sure. Especially for one off complicated jobs.
Sending strength and confidence to keep breaking down the jobs one step at a time.

Keep us updated on the bathroom reno if you can please.

Aww thanks!

In the end I discovered that my calculations had all gone a bit wrong because I assumed that the waste would sit higher in the tray than it actually did. (Annoying that so few products come with good technical drawings). Of course the tray sides are level but theres a slope and the waste sits at the lowest point - doh! So to get the 40mm fall on the waste pipe, the tray would have to up… or the connection drop down….

Anyway as a result even more work on the cast today and dad took an angle grinder to the stack today to get a chunk out of the side - which in the end means the standard riser kit (legs and fascia) works just right. So theres a slight step up into the shower but not much and still plenty headroom thankfully…

And he tidied up the ragged edge on the soil pipe connection too. Horrible job cutting all the cast iron - took ages and so messy. And of course nothing could be progressed on the rest of the fitting while this was happening…

Waste now mostly dry fitted except I had to get a few new pipe fittings from B&Q to get the last connection to fit to the shower trap. Weirdly the trap has a 32 dia outlet but a regular shower waste is 43mm diameter. The trap comes with a converter but irritatingly it’s angled rather than straight like I need. I imagine plumbers know all these details so know what to buy in advance- it’s slow having to figure it all out…

Plumber coming Monday/Tuesday to fit the new boiler so if I can get the pipe boxing finished and mount the concealed cistern, then set out all the pipe work, then I’m hoping he can sort the first fix water supply pipes for the cistern, shower and basin tap which would save me a lot of work….

@bickering ok nothing simple there then. Would a shallow rise shower trap been of any use? They have some in Screwfix but appreciate you have moved things along now.
Its just so difficult to know what will fit until you are actually on the job. I took to buying plumbing items not packaged so I could buy a load and return what I did not use.
I still have a bag of surplus plumbing parts though.
Plus I use Toolstation a lot and the staff are great to me there, mostly staffed by women so I take my old fittings down in a bag now and they will open the new items and we see what fits so that has limited unnecessary purchases.
I have used JG Speedfit pipe and connections and flexi tails for the taps , bit more expensive but very good connections, with no issues and stick to Mcalpine where possible for the actual fittings.
Building Merchants also can be useful for slightly off spec parts.
I hear you on slow...I am very slow however practice is progress. I try not to get too disheartened now when things don't work out first time, its just the nature of DIY really.
Great news on the new boiler being fitted, sending strength and keep breaking down those jobs a step at a time.💪

i took a couple of days off work and spent the weekend on the bathroom. It seemed achingly slow but came together quite well in the end yesterday. Cast iron cut down once …. And then twice 🤣 End of WC connection neatened off and the the rough inner face ground smooth. (Thanks to my dad for those two heavy jobs).

Shower tray and riser kit dry fitted and waste pipe set loosely in position - just need to get one last connection/converter to the trap. I didn’t want to get a super shallow trap as I want it to work without issues. Im slightly nervous about tight traps and blockages - so opted for a 70mm deep McAlpine instead of the 80mm deep one which is made by the shower tray people. Shame as it doesn’t look as nice but hey for an extra 10mm of height and easy replacement parts I can live with it. Timber framing for the boxing out done (just a couple of studs left to secure this afternoon).

Setting out all done for the new radiators - discovered I’d got the wrong ones… dashed off to get some replacements. I ordered them in a rush off the internet- doh!

Hung the toilet cistern and was prepping for a dry fitted of the loo… only to discover that I’d been sent a wall hung pan rather than a back to wall. I’d checked for no damage when they arrived but hadn’t taken the pan fully out of the box to avoid me damaging it…Grrr ….looking at the order numbers theyve had a total mix up and clearly sent my loo to someone else by mistake. So I’ll need to get that returned and once the replacement comes I can measure up for the pan connector - which is also special order/not usually available in builders merchants it seems.

Checked the tiling and t&g boarding layouts against the sanitary ware positions and that all still works as planned. I’ll just need to mark out the positions of the basin & shower supply pipes this afternoon for the plumber to do the first fix… exciting!

So overall big leaps forward and after today/Tuesday I’ll be even closer to having a working bathroom!

So you don’t want a wall hung pan? Having lived in my apartment for 10+ years, I am never going back to a floor standing one.
Cleaning the floor is so easy. Same with the sink.

I was tempted but if I’d gone that route the boxing out would need to be fatter. You can’t see in the pick but on the right hand side theres a window which limits the boxing width…. This bathroom is small but blooming fiddly!

@bickering How have things been this week?
Boxing in and stud work looks great.

Thanks for asking. Plumbing first fix and new boiler/rads went in this week in so a huge leap forward. There are a couple of snagging points so the plumber will have to come back but it’s good to have some heating on for now to get the plaster dried out.

I’ve spent way too much time there this week but have been planning and ordering materials. And watching a lot of YouTube videos on different bathroom installations!

Much time has been wasted working out various odd plumbing junctions. The back to wall loo is a particular pain (Ive now got the correct pan) as the waste pipe is deep inside the ceramic. And Ive got a 90 bed to deal with to reach the soil pipe with a longish distance to centre of loo. One standard McAlpine connector is almost perfect but just 100mm short into the back of the pan. The BTW fitting uses a jubilee clip to be secured on to the toilet pan so that you know it won’t disconnect when it’s pushed back into place so I have spent a lot of time trying to make that work. After a lot of googling I’ve ordered 2 McAlpine “BTW” fittings plus a short extension pipe to suit my dimensions. Im a little nervous to have a joint at the back of the pan but at least it will be secured by jubilee clip rather than a simple push fit, but I can’t see any other “safe” alternative given the tight dimensions Ive got to work with. Parts now ordered for that.

Ive got some adjustments and additions to make to the boxing out this weekend plus fit studwork for the pocket door opposite. The studwork will be easy - the hard bit is getting it in the right place and all square ready for the Wedi linings… this is where any errors will show up, so fingers crossed and wish me luck!

Slow but steady progress…. spent a long time rechecking all the setting out and squareness. Happy that ive managed to build the timber framing accurately enough and in the right place (so the shower tray length should fit

Prepped the shower tray sealing in the waste and gluing the riser legs into position. Got the pocket door timbers dry fitted - just the lintel on sliding bracket to add.

Unfortunately discovered that the plumber measured off a different bit of wall so the shower pipes are 10mm off…. So pedant that I am, Ive had to dismantle some of last week’s timber work to avoid this messing up the tiling layout across the shower tray width in due course. On the plus side I can maybe install a wider Wedi board on the outside wall which will be more snug….

Framing for pocket door mostly in…

ive lots of jobs almost completed- looking forward to finishing some!

Sounds like it's going great!