Water softener for whole house

[grandschemeofthings]

Does anyone have a water softener for the whole house, ie attached at the main intake point, rather than one just in the kitchen sink?

We live in a very hard water area and limescale is a nightmare so we're weighing up the pros and cons of having one installed. But I've read that drinking softened water isn't necessarily great for you?

Also not clear on how expensive all the salt packages would be long term?

Any intel from someone who's had one installed and found it helpful would be great.

Yes - weve had water softners in 2 houses and can Definately recommend them.

very little limescale everywhere and need to use a lot less shampoo/soap etc. they are supposed to be better for the skin if anyone has eczma.

ive always left out the kitchen sink as prefer ‘fresh’ water to drink from there but still drink it upstairs at night with no problem.

i think they also keep appliances working better for longer as less build up of limescale in pipework.

my current one used salt blocks.

We have one. It's installed upstairs in a bathroom cupboard and supplies the whole house. We also have a separate fresh water tap on the kitchen sink; we drink both fresh and filtered water. No-one's died (yet).😙

If we moved tomorrow to a house without one, a water softener would be one of the first things on our "to do" list.

Salt packs cost roughly £5 each and one lasts us about 2-3 months (two people, two showers a day and normal domestic appliances; dishwasher, washing machine, etc).

We've just had one installed for the whole house but for the kitchen tap we've got a 3-way tap where one of them is unsoftened water for drinking. We need softened water in the kitchen for the kettle!

It's bloody brilliant how much less cleaning I have to do! The shelf space it takes up under the kitchen sink was previously taken up with bottles of Viakal.

Yes and wouldn't be without one now.

It is common practice to have an unsoftened water pipe teed off, for the garden tap and a drinking water tap.

The sodium content of softened water is a bit of a red herring. It is lower than in milk or coke, and a bucket of softened water contains about as much as a slice of bread or a bowl of cornflakes. It would be impossible to drink as much sodium in softened water in a day as you find in a big mac.

I have salt delivered in plastic sacks twice a year. Don't collect it in your own car as it is very corrosive and the smallest spill will eat through steel. Have a look at the delivery van and you will see it is severely rusty. Mine is in "tablet" or "pebbles" form and easier to handle than grains. It would probably corrode your hoover if spilt.

The sacks are quite heavy though you can get 10kg ones at slightly higher price. I would not recommend carrying them upstairs. Put the softener where it will be easy to fill. Salt blocks are convenient but even more expensive.

Your local water softener company probably offers salt delivery and a repair service, as well as selling and guaranteeing the machines. This is better than buying from a DIY shed.

The water from the taps does not contain salt. It contains a tiny amount of sodium bicarbonate, as found in indigestion remedies, baking soda, and effervescent tablets.

Where do you install for the shower/upstairs bathroom if you have to fill with salt? Does it have a pump or something for pressure?
Hard water area here too and fed up of having to spend hours researching kettles so I can have a decent cup of tea!

I think you are taking it a bit far with the "corrosive" stuff.

Yes saltwater is corrosive. But it isn't as bad as say concentrated sulphuric acid.

People swim in seawater all the time, put salt on their food and have it in containers in their cupboards. It's really not that dangerous or corrosive. If you leave metal things in contact with salt solution for a long time yes they will corrode eventually but it's not going to burn its way through metal like the blood from the creature of Alien.

As regards water softeners, two things I see here that have not been mentioned. One is the slight reduction in water pressure they cause, the other is siting point.

You may need electrics to run it and also it probably has to be sited in an area that doesn't get too cold (freeze) although I think this depends on the model.

This is a shame for me because I have a nice outside cupboard where I could put one, but my guess is it gets too cold.

I mentioned spilled salt. The grains and dust are much worse than salt water and can lodge in the metalwork of a car. I have looked at the delivery van and it had holes in the floor and doors.

However I live on the coast, and although I live a couple of miles from the beach, outdoor metalwork such as fence brackets and nails rusts very quickly, just from salt spray. I now only use stainless outside.

The mains comes into our house in the downstairs toilet room which was too small to put the water softener in. So the plumber put 5he softener in the garage with short pipes running through the wall. Over a decade in and no problems. It's a Harvey's TwinTec - takes 2 blocks of salt which lasts 6 weeks for 2 of us (lasted 4 weeks when there were 4 of us). The salt is quite expensive but I buy a years worth at a time as you get a better price. The blocks are stored next to the unit in the garage. The savings on washing powder, washing up liquid, shampoo, etc make up for the cost of salt. We hardly use any compared to pre-softener! Cleaning is a doddle. Would never be without it.

Softeners should be installed as close to where the water comes into your house as possible. Helps prevent and reduce the limescale in all the pipes.

Our softener doesn't need electricity, it's as simple as they come (I have a reminder to check the salt level and replace the blocks). There hasn't been a reduction in our water pressure either.

@GasPanic speak to an installer - ours is in an internal garage so no heating but all the pipes have nice cosy foam covers. You might find with a bit of tweaking your cupboard is OK.

"This is a shame for me because I have a nice outside cupboard where I could put one, but my guess is it gets too cold."

Mine is in the garage. There are some exposed pipes and I put a pipe heater under them. I used a frost stat but the power used is not great. I think mine is 60Watt and I unplug it in summer.
www.screwfix.com/p/dimplex-40w-electric-wall-mounted-thermostatic-tubular-heater/3951f

There are (were?) some softeners where the meter is driven by water flow with a sort of clockwork mechanism.

Good point about flow reduction.

You can get full-bore pipes, connectors and valves, they are expensive when bought separately, but sometimes bundled with the softener machine in a package. Very useful if you have a combi or unvented cylinder.

Our house has one installed by the previous owner. We moved in August and will need to top up the salt in February (it has a little screen that tells us how many days it’s got left). We did get the kitchen tap split off when having some other work done as it was previously all softened, and our water provider recommends not drinking softened water regularly due to the hardness, plus for pets and houseplants I understand softened water isn’t great.

It makes a big difference in limescale build up in the bathroom, and I’ve not noticed a pressure issue but our hot water comes from a tank not a Combi boiler.

Exactly this for our setup, apart from we had it installed years ago - it’s brilliant. Softened water in the kettle makes the tea taste good again - it’s one of the main ways I know if the blocks have run out, tea tastes watery and thin again!

eta - the only thing that’s annoying is we use unsoftened water for watering the plants in the house, so we have to schlep upstairs with a watering can rather than getting it from bathroom sink.

There's a common pattern - people who've got one wouldn't be without it.

Soft towels, easy cleaning, shiny hair, clear shower screens and mirrors, and a wet-shave razor glides over the skin. Mrs Piglet's eczema also cleared up.

I have measured temperatures in that cupboard down to -10. It's on the north wall of the house and gets little sun so if you have a few days of very cold weather then a cold night it gets very cold indeed.

It has a lot of pipes in it and is where the water comes in/water meter is and it frightens the crap out of me. I have put double insulation on all the pipes.

I suspect the solution is a small pipe/outdoor heater as pigletjohn suggests, I have one, just haven't had the time to fit it.

Wow, that's pretty conclusive support for softeners then! And the salt plan doesn't sound too pricey.

My thinking was that we'd install it where the water pipe comes in, in our small cellar. I'm not sure how they'd get a separate pipe to the kitchen sink or the outside tap unfortunately though, is that a deal breaker?

What brands/makes would everyone recommend? I've seen Culligan and Harvey?

We have a softener for the whole house. It is installed on our rising main, which is the intake for the whole house. It doesn't need any power source. It is a Twintec Mini Curve softener and we use Harvey's mini curve block salt in it.

We have a separate drinking water tap on the kitchen sink which splits off from the rising main just before the point where the softener kicks in, so that is hard water. You might get one of those as part of the deal but you should check first and ask specifically for one if they don't automatically do it.

We use softened water in the kettle etc, not hard water from the drinking water tap, otherwise it would fur up like mad and we'd still keep getting mouthfuls of limescale in our tea or coffee. It's fine. The additional salt level in softened water is not really that high and you can't taste it. It isn't harmful.

We’ve got Harvey’s, I’d recommend them but have no comparison to any others. Re the location of the box - suggest you get Harvey’s or someone else in and ask them what they suggest. There may be several options or only one, and it’s easier than second guessing it.

Softened water might not be harmful but it doesn't taste very nice so I'd definitely get an unsoftened water tap for the kitchen for drinking (but not tea making!).

"it doesn't taste very nice"

Opinions differ.

For those of you who have one under the kitchen sink, does that also feed the bathrooms and the boiler?

Yes.

Sorry this might be long and my technical terminology might not be correct.
We renovated a derelict property which needed all new pipework. We had several companies come to demo their machines and we did alot of reviewing.

From memory there are 2 main types, those with and those without electrics. The electric ones flush/recharge the system at a set time each day- normally middle of the night. The problem with that type though is it will do it, even if you haven't used any water all day- such as when on holiday. It also uses water and electric to recharge it.

We bought the non electric one, which only recharges when it needs it. If you have a large household and don't go away much, then then electric one might be better. For us though, its just 2 of us, but a large house. We do often go away/work away, so the non electric one suited us.

We have a booster pump and hot return, so never noticed a reduction in pressure. In addition to inside, we also installed garden taps at the front and back. To wash the car, attach to a karcher for the windows etc. We also have regular garden taps for watering. In the kitchen we have a 3 way tap. We also have one in our en-suite. It means I can get fresh water at night without coming downstairs. I know the 'salted' water is ok to drink, but I can't stand the taste!

In terms of salt, again, several types. 1 brand, I think Harvey, makes a salt block shaped to fit their machines only. We didn't want to be tied into only being able to buy their own, branded salt. Other brands do a compressed brick shape. We went with the pellets, which are about 1inch square little blocks. You can buy them from nearly every hardware store, builders merchants, plumbing supplies etc and just seemed easier to find and cheaper than the blocks.

Another thing to consider is hopper size- where you put the salt into the machine. Although its only DH and myself, we often have friends/family and when its a full house, some of the salt machines would apparently need filling every few days! This seemed like such a faff. Luckily we had the space, so we have a hotel sized one. Its about 1.2m tall and round. Yes, its excessive, but we only fill it annually and can buy the salt in bulk for a cheaper price. Its a shame they didn't make a size between a normal domestic one and the hotel one though. We went with kinetico brand.

I'm curious about this too. Do you get them installed by a plumber or a specialist company?

Sounds just what we need. What kind of prices are we looking at for a four bed, two bathroom house?