Heating & hot water system in bungalow

[MinnieGirl]

We have been desperate to move to a bungalow. Had an offer accepted but the buyers hadn’t found anything after four months and we got fed up of waiting. A few have now come onto the market and we’ve offered on one of them. We’ve always known we would have to compromise on something….but this one kicks most of the boxes. Really good location. Decent size rooms. Not too much needs doing. Had a level 3 survey and it’s shown loads of moss on the roof and full gutters, which hubby is panicking about. But it’s also shown a strange (to me) heating and water system. Now I’ve got a Combi boiler that heats and provides hot water. The bungalow has a boiler in the kitchen that supplies the heating system. And a hot water tank in an airing cupboard next to the kitchen. But there is a cold water tank in the loft… apparently the mains water supplies the kitchen sink and the outside two. The bathroom is supplied by the cold water tank in the loft. Now we don’t really want a tank full of water in the loft. So can we get it removed, take out the hot water tank and put in a Combi boiler? And can we sort out the water supply so all our taps are fed directly from the mains? And roughly how much would this cost? Any help gratefully received

Moss can be got off the roof and gutters emptied, not sure why he’s panicking. Are there lots of trees near it?
I have a hot water tank and cold tank in the loft, it’s not unusual. Having had the gas go off for days in the past I prefer to have an immersion heater as an option as at least we had hot showers, and those with combi boilers didn’t. But it can easily be changed, no idea on cost

We have moss on the roof at times, we regularly clear gutters (easy on a bungalow) but careful cleaning a roof, it can do harm on a good roof. We have an oil boiler (no gas here) with the arrangement you mention, not an issue and as a previous poster said, an independent immersion can be very handy at times. Tank in the roof is easy checked on. You may have a good older robust boiler, don't necessarily be in a hurry to replace with a new system, as it may be expense you never needed to have. Surveyor's love drama and to find something to write to justify their cost, take it from someone who worked for one!!

Yes gutters are easily cleaned and the boiler system isn’t unusual. Yes it can all be replaced by a combi system which may well be more efficient

since water has to come from mains to your cold water tank I suspect it’s quite simple to just bypass that tank - although that is slightly odd I do wonder why that was done

what you describe is the normal way any central heating system operated before the advent of combi boilers.
The loft tank provides a gravity fed supply to the boiler as the boiler does not require main pressure. In those days it was also deemed "unnecessary" to have mains fed cold supply to taps that would not be used to drink from. The dead pigeon contaminating the loft tank was considered a low risk !

Any qualified boiler installer will be well used to converting the pipework over to mains and removing the loft tank and airing cupboard hot water cylinder.

impossible to say how much it would cost as we don't know your location or what size of combi boiler you will need. It will certainly be several £ thousands

"since water has to come from mains to your cold water tank I suspect it’s quite simple to just bypass that tank - although that is slightly odd I do wonder why that was done"

Older vented hot water tank systems are always installed like this. The hot water tank is fed from the header tank in the loft, so the hot water pressure is caused by the height difference between the tanks, feeding the bathroom cold tap off the header tank means you get the same pressure on hot and cold feeds. You may find there is a pump somewhere to increase the pressure, as showers tend to be rubbish with this sort of system. A modern combi boiler would be more efficient, but you need to factor running costs against capital costs. Certainly if the existing boiler is 15+ years old, and/or there is an electric power shower, I'd replace with a combi.

Moss on the roof and slightly blocked gutters is a really easy fix. Don't worry about that.

The heating system as you describe was very, very common. Yes, I'm sure you could replace it, but equally you could just live with it for a bit, and see what you think. There is nothing wrong or unusual about it - it's just different to what you are used to.

moss on a roof is a normal fact of life and an indication of the orientation of the roof relative to "north". Moss grows quickest on shaded, north faces (hence moss on tree trunks can be used instead of a compass to get a general idea of north)

moss removal is down to how much you want to spend and what roof tiles have been used.

It is strongly advised never to use a full pressure pressure washer as that can damage the tiles (eg remove their sand coating if applic).
The alternative methods are then down to cost:

• some argue that manual scraping is the best method. It can be labour intensive (£££) but not necessarily least damaging and won't get everything.
• some will go direct to "soft wash" ie low pressure using chemicals. Quick to do but results may not show for a while and unsuitable for some tile types.
• some will then sell you a post clean "biocide" treatment to delay regrowth

i have what youre describing in my bungalow, i love the fact that i can dry clothes in the winter due to the hot water cylinder in the cupboard

Thank you all for your response and your comments which are all really helpful. I think the main thing is, as pointed out, it’s something different and we just need to see how we go with it before rushing into anything. Hubby is a total worry pants…he panics at everything and can never see the good side of anything, so I do have my work cut out with him!
Sadly, the airing cupboard is tiny….. a few shelves above the tank for small towels and that’s it, so I wouldn’t be able to dry clothes in there. But I do think we need to live with it and see how we get on.

The system you have got holds a store of hot and cold water. Typically around 100 litres of each, which is enough for a bath. Because the water pressure from a tank is lower than the mains, British bath taps, and the pipes supplying them, are larger, so they can deliver good flow at low pressure. This means you can fill a bath in a few minutes. A modern combi boiler has the ability to deliver around 12 litres per minute of hot water (less in winter when the incoming supply is colder and needs more heat to get it hot) which is fine for a shower but takes a long time to fill a bath. In an older home with a small water supply pipe to the street main this might be as much as you have (sometimes you have even less) so turning on a kitchen tap, flushing a WC or running a washing machine reduces the flow of water from your bathtap or shower. Thus is very annoying in a shower, because the flow and temperature will vary. It is not such a problem in a single-occupancy home where nobody else will be using water at the same time.

You can resolve the water supply limitation by running a new, larger water pipe out to the road, in 25mm for most homes, or 32mm if you have two bathrooms. This is a surprisingly easy job for anybody who can use a spade to dig a trench. More arduous if you have a concrete drive in the way.

The best hot water supply is from an unvented cylinder, which has no loft tank and is fed directly from the main. Subject to a good incoming supply, and a modern boiler, it can fill a hot bath very quickly, and be ready for another one before you have got out and cut your toenails. In a larger house, it is modern practice to have a larger cylinder that holds enough water for two baths. Heat loss and running costs are not very different because they are very well insulated.

With a cylinder you have the advantage that you can heat it with an electric immersion heater on those rare days when your boiler is not working. Anybody who has a combi will know what a disaster it is when it breaks down.

We've got a bungalow that had a roof and gutters with lots of moss and it's easily removed.

We've got a combi boiler here but I remember my DF having a heating system like yours. We also had a hot water tank in our apartment which was a new build because it was an eco thing.

It might be quite expensive to remove the tanks but if it works you could keep it.

Thanks again for all the helpful comments. We don’t have a bath so no worries on that score. I think it’s just a very unfamiliar system to us, but it’s been really useful reading about others experiences.

We still have a water tanks in the loft and a hot water cylinder (property built in 2000). We replaced the boiler but kept the tanks and cylinder as the system works for us.

A well thought out traditional system with hot water cylinder and tank in loft beats these temperamental 'Combi's' hands down imo.

entirely depends on who is in the property.
Heating a tank of water that has gone cold by the time you next use it is not hands down to me. Hence we have twice replaced indirect heating with combis in 2 of our houses.

Insulate the cylinder then! Our hot water stay hot after only being heated for 1 hour per day. We dont really have baths though so just need it for hand washing and washing items that dont go in the dishwasher.

as I said it depends who is in the property. No amount of insultation is going to make heating a tank an efficient use of £ compared to heating water on demand if you have low usage.

Just to echo pps saying this is quite a normal and robust system from pre combi days (and similar is still used where people want a lot of hot water).

I wouldn't bother to replace it immediately - see what the bills are like. The boiler may be fine or it may be very old and inefficient.

Also just to note that if you or your successors want to "go green" at some point, having a space for a hot water tank and the plumbing in place (ie tank supplying all the hot taps) will make installing a heat pump a lot easier.

(hot water tanks are the past, but also the future!)

Yes this heating system is very common and depending on the age of the house works very well. You can often get a better shower than from a combi boiler!

If I was buying somewhere like this I would get the boiler serviced so you’re sure it’s safe, then (assuming it is) live with what’s there and think about replacing it in time with air/ ground source heating.

Only thing we did in your situation was to change the bathroom taps to be mains fed as otherwise we wouldn’t have drunk the cold water from the bathroom taps (I.e those they had been fed from the header tank in the roof). This wasn’t a major job so far as I can recollect.

This.

Why are gutters and moss an issue?

After leaf fall each year, get a step ladder and clear the gutters, then use a long bamboo cane to remove any moss from between the tiles/slates.

I spend one fine Sunday each autumn doing this. Requires no skill whatsoever.

This.

Thanks again everyone. There is an awful lot of moss but we can get that cleared quite easily, and as others have said, clearing the gutters will be easy as it’s a bungalow. The heating system seems to have advantages over what we now have which is a Combi boiler. We are definitely going to get the boiler serviced prior to exchanging and then will just live with it and watch the bills.
Getting the bathroom taps main fed is a brilliant idea, and we will be doing that too.

There are people who believe this.

However, every time you turn in a hot tap, you heat up the metalwork and water inside a combi by about 40C, and when you turn the tap off, all the residual heat slowly leaks away, until you do it all again next time you run a tap.

For HW, firing a boiler continuously for half an hour or so twice a day, to heat a well-insulated cylinder, that will stay hot, if not used, literally for days, is far more efficient. The cylinder stat will turn off the boiler as soon as it is hot, and it will not demand more heat until you use it. For peak efficiency, use the timer as well so it is only heated before morning shower time and evening bath time. That way the boiler only runs twice. If you have a big cylinder (which is common modern practice) you may only need to run it once.

A modern boiler can heat a modern cylinder in about half an hour, even a big one, and after running a bath, it will be hot again ready for the next bath by the time you have wallowed about, towelled yourself dry, and cut your toenails.

Modern white cylinders usually run straight off the waterman, at good pressure, and do not need a cold tank in the loft. But an old house will need replumbing with new pipework to get the best out of them.

I’ve got this type of hot water system, with an immersion heater, and it works fine. It wouldn’t be worth my while replacing it (there’s no gas in the vicinity).
Moss on roofs is easily cleared and gutters easily emptied.