I can’t believe my solicitor did this

[TipsyPeachSnake]

So I accepted an offer on a terraced house which I bought over 10 years ago. Double glazing was put in back then, similar to others on the street. However, it has now come to light that the house is a listed building and there is no listed building consent.

I could purchase indemnity insurance to cover this for buyer but have found out that my solicitor contacted the council asking for retrospective LBC!!

Because of the actions of my solicitor the council have been made aware of unauthorised work on the property which could potentially lead to significant penalties and loss of sale.

I’m shocked a solicitor acting on my behalf would do this. What can I do? Anyone had similar experience? Please, any advice would be appreciated.

A solicitor has no right to apply for LBC without their clients permission. It appears in this case the council pretty much told them so too.

I know you’re having fun rolling this all up together into one big rant about how the OP is wrong and adding the emotional aspect of the ‘poor’ solicitor, but the fact is, the solicitor did do something wrong. They told the council without explaining the implications of it to the OP, and without being instructed to do so.

@TottenhamCake thought there was a little loophole in planning. As the works are old circa ten years would be seen as historic and therefore would not need to be put right, or is that not the case ?

Not for listed buildings as far as I know.

You really cannot and you are incorrect. I work in this field.

some sympathetic conservation officers might allow double glazing - a lot wouldn’t. For unauthorised work the stance is to return back and that includes single glazing.

English Heritage will allow ultra slim double glazing but they’re not cheap which is probably why the OP ‘didn’t know’ the building was listed 🙄

You didn’t know the house you bought was a listed building ?

We had a similar situation - different underlying issue with the property, but something highly unlikely to be an issue and which you would purchase indemnity insurance for but which would typically involve warranting that the council wasn't on notice of the issue. In my case the vendor, who was doing most of the transaction themselves to save money, panicked when my solicitor flagged the issue and immediately wrote to the council asking for reassurance that the council wouldn't do whatever it was it could have done 🙄

I think shop around the policies, OP, because in our case my solicitor did find a slightly more expensive policy that didn't require that warranty and we bought that one. But I would be very cross with your solicitor who ought to know that this is a very common requirement of indemnity insurance because obviously it affects risk from the insurer's perspective.

Duplicate post, sorry

Oh dear OP…

A few different things going on here, which in my view as a Planning Prosecution professional. Of course, LPAs (local planning authorities - usually councils) take their own approaches, which may differ from one another.

1. Unauthorised works that affect the character, appearance, or integrity of a listed is a criminal offence. Strict liability, ignorance no defence and culpability falls to anyone who carried out or caused works to be carried out (s7 and s9 Listed Building and Conservation Area Act 1990)
2. UVPC windows are generally incompatible with heritage preservation principles. ALL the LPAs I’ve worked at WILL require reinstatement of timber windows in design as per listing
3. Responsibility to reinstate falls on owner at time of enforcement investigation and subsequent action
4. No immunity by passage of time for unauthorised works. My team will prioritise prosecutions for planning cases that subject to immunity, as listed building cases can be investigated at any time. (Which may explain poster who mentioned 18 months for council to look into)
5. In OPs scenario, without listed building consent (btw this is different from retrospective planning permission, in that lbc provides consent from date of LPA decision and does not apply retrospectively) the windows may need original design to be reinstated and easier (and more responsible to address/negotiate at point of sale)
6. If OP sold property and unauthorised windows later comes to attention of LPA, current owner would be responsible to reinstate, but investigations would inevitably eventually lead to OP as responsible. At worst, Listed Building Enforcement Notice issued to current owner and launch prosecution against OP as person responsible for the works.

A very simplified summary, but I think includes all relevant info regarding the unauthorised works. Therefore while solicitor’s query not ideal for you at this moment in time, I have no opinion on whether they acted inappropriately and a complaint is justified.

I’m happy to answer any questions that might help you work out what’s happened and what to be aware of in terms of resolving things.

On a practical level though I thought you need detailed drawing and materials listed etc for a listed building consent for windows? What has the trainee solicitor that went ahead even asked for? Surely they had no photos or drawings etc?
Personally I would be looking into now what exactly is required for this building for windows right now to be compliant. Trying to figure out practicalities and cost.

UVPC windows are generally incompatible with heritage preservation principles. ALL the LPAs I’ve worked at WILL require reinstatement of timber windows in design as per listing

OP has apparently replaced the upvc windows with more appropriate ones “wood type” - whether that actually means wood or wood effect is not clear.

As per my previous message, it seems extraordinary that OP bought a Grade II listed property with existing uPVC windows without the non-compliance being flagged by the surveyor and solicitor.

How did they ever get fitted in the first place? Iiuc the fitters themselves would be committing an offence and liable for a fine in addition to the OP’s fitters.

Why did her solicitor not suggest compliance before purchase or insurance?

(It seems possible therefore that OP has misunderstood the solicitor’s message and the house is not in fact listed but in a conservation area)

It can’t just have come to light it was a listed building. The most basic search would have revealed that when you bought it (and I’m surprised it wasn’t mentioned as such in the Agents particulars).

At that point you, as the purchaser, should have been asking questions as to any work that was done. If any solicitor was incompetent it was the one from when you bought it.

P.S. The reason I know this is because I’m literally buying a listed property at the moment.

P.P.S you’ll never get / have gotten LBC for replacing windows with modern ones. You’ll need to return them to the original style / materials.

Sorry as I missed this:
“Yes wooden type windows keeping in style to what I believe were more in line with original. The existing windows that I replaced were actually UPVC double glazed!”

If the windows you replaced were uvpc, they are unlikely to be the original design. That being the case, the existing timber windows may be acceptable and the relevant application would be a Listed Building Certificate of Lawful Development.

A few things you can do on a practical level:

1. Check the listed building description and photos to understand details of the original windows
2. Check the windows of the properties adjacent to yours. Are your windows the same?
3. Check the planning / heritage / conservation web pages for your council - what do they say about works to listed buildings. Look for an email address or general enquiries
4. Speak to a Heritage/Conservation Officer (not all Councils have one) and let them know that you removed uvpc and reinstated timber windows
5. Ask if the windows you installed need certification, if yes, ask if they can expedite in light of the house sale (Conservation Officers in my team may do so if they have caseload capacity and current install appears in keeping with age, period etc of property). If they say certification is not required, ask them to email confirmation to you. (They should say that they need to visit the property, but they may be able to do this for you).

One point to highlight as a question to you is that you mentioned that the purchaser intends to carry works himself - including changing the windows? Is the prospective buyer aware of the listed status of the building? If not, may that affect the sale anyway?

You can't really be angry at your solicitor, very likely he/she was required to let the council know- he/she certainly couldn't be part of the sale of the property.
It's likely they will give retrospective permission- but even if they don't, you can't really claim you/the person you purchased off didn't know if it has been listed for 40 years- in my experience this information is up front and centre even on the estate agents particulars.

I would start by trying to get your solicitors to tell you exactly what happened. To do that you're better off sounding curious than cross.

My initial thought was perhaps your solicitors were checking the Council's usual approach to these situations without giving your details.

For a trainee to have done this I'd think it likely they've seen somebody else so it in similar circumstances.

You can complain but solicitors are culturally generally bad at complaints - we're often perfectionists who get defensive rather than trying to fix the problem. So ask them to explain how they're planning to fix it so your sale can proceed ASAP.

Keep complaining for later if they don't fix it.

You can't really be angry at your solicitor, very likely he/she was required to let the council know- he/she certainly couldn't be part of the sale of the property.
It's likely they will give retrospective permission

What makes you believe any of this is correct?

You are correct

What makes you think solicitors can support activity which is illegal without repercussions?
You cannot buy insurance to indemnify a risk which is 100%
UPVC windows installed in a listed property, which has been listed for 40 years- will definitely need replacing.
Buying insurance to pay for it would be insurance fraud

Your solicitor's idea of asking the council for permission and hoping they are lenient is your best bet.

Your solicitor you have used for the purchase is the one who should have dealt with this back then. Also. Are you sure it’s listed? Because terrace house normally aren’t listed buildings

Hey Kirinm.
you can own an empty property.‘I’m guessing that is how the OP did the windows between purchase and moving date

I understand that you have hired these solicitors and expect them to act in your interests, but equally they aren’t going to do anything that may bring their reputation into disrepute ie misleading authorities. I could totally see a trainee solicitor wanting to ensure the process is being completed by the book by ensuring the council is aware of pertinent information and correct permission is sought etc.

I don’t think overall that the firm has made an error per se, yes this may delay things or cost you money…but ultimately they didn’t carry out the unauthorised work on a listed building. You did, so those costs will always be yours to bear and it was a problem that needed to be resolved. I would have expected them to give you notification in advance though, so that you would be aware of what the potential costs and implications are, even if you can’t change their course of action.

@OakDeane24 Solicitors actions are within the law

... or, you know, apart from the times when solicitors don't act within the law...?

LB status should have been revealed by local authority search at the time of purchase, even if the sellers did not declare it on the seller forms.
There is no time limit for failure to get consent for LBC. As PP said it is strictly speaking a criminal offence.
The trainee has clearly messed up and it sounds like your solicitors know it. I am slightly surprised they think they can get an indemnity just based on no response for 10 weeks. I would ask what it is going to cost compared to what it would have cost if the trainee had not gone rogue. Any difference is for sols to fund.

Hi, Solicitors have indemnity insurance for any work they undertake, and if they make an error, and from the sounds of it they know they made an error, then they have to cover any loss.

Email them and tell them what you know and ask how this came about. They should have checked all of this when they did the sale. I would be surprised if they wouldn't cover any expenses rather than claiming ont heir indemnity insurance.

In fairness when we sold our last house, we couldn't find the guarantee for our windows (although it wasn't a listed house) and so we had to pay for the indemnity and the other side accepted this without issue.