Building over a drain

[BeMintFatball]

Daughter is in the process of buying a house. During Covid present owners had a builder construct an orangery to the rear spanning the kitchen . A license to build over a drain was not sort. The owner didn’t know they needed one.

however to complicate matters the sewer inspection pit is in next door neighbour’s property. Literally as neighbours have built an extension over the manhole cover.

The surveyor and solicitor strongly suggest daughter get a drain specialist to put a cctv camera down the drain for inspection. However she has approached 5 companies and none are interested as they say they need access to the manhole.

given the house was built 1950 therefore drains will be 75 years old would you continue with the purchase and hope for the best or something else. What would you do ?

My victorian drain is as good as new still, my DSIS had an edwardian drain collapse but luckily not built over.
I have heard of drain collapses under those fancy rear extensions that are so popular.
I have already decided that I will not buy a house with a covered drain. I am a worrier though.
I would want a substantial discount.

@MinnieCauldwell interesting that you have heard of drain collapse. Part of the reason she now has cold feet is that a few years down the line she worries that the house will be difficult to sell.

I did a quick Google and building extensions over drains will be approved if the pipes are covered in a certain way. My friends kitchen extension us over a manhole and she is not bothered.
Maybe check out the planning permission?

@MinnieCauldwell sadly don’t exist. The extension was built during Covid. Owners did not get planning permission for the build. Did not get works signed off by building control. Did not get a build over license to go over the drains.

Sellers are taking out indemnity policies for what they haven’t done.But those only cover legal fees should the council decide the orangery needs to be taken down. They will not compensate my daughter for the loss of the orangery .

In view of your last post regarding planning permission, etc, my gut feeling is to step away from buying the house.

I wonder what else the owners have done illegally/cheaply. I think I would walk away.

Our water company won't let buildings go over manholes anymore and charge a fortune for you to find that out. I think your DD is around risk of huge fees and taking the thing down if they become aware of it.

@Breadpool would you be able to tell me the name of your water Company.? We might be in the same area

I would advise not to buy. We had a sale on our house fall through because there was no drainage/sewage inspection pit. Oddly, when we'd bought the house a few years earlier, the subject didn't arise at all! So maybe it depends on surveyor?
It hadn't been covered by an extension, it just didn't exist. My Dad (who was very handy like that) ended up digging out & creating an inspection pit for us, so all was good.
But the added complication of an extension built over it, & no planning permission (& god knows what else) would make it a big no for me.

Pitch fibre drains were often used in the 1950s and they collapse/fail terribly, so I definitely wouldn’t buy it without a drain inspection. Plus if the neighbours haven’t done their extension properly around the drains that could cause them to collapse, so I would want much more detail about their extension before proceeding. Could you ask the water board where the next nearest manhole is? Do the neighbours definitely not have an access panel in their floor where the manhole was that could be used for a survey?

We built over a drain (but not a manhole) and had to have strengthened foundations around the pipes, we also put in an access point for rodding as there was no manhole within our properties boundaries. We also put in a manhole in our front garden when we added an upstairs shower room using a pre existing drain that had no manhole within our boundaries, so it can be done. (With permission from the water board).

I definitely wouldn’t buy the house without a drain survey and detailed info on their and their neighbours extensions wrt weight support for the drains below. Could be an expensive nightmare otherwise!

Why purchase someone else's bodges when your fully aware of them?

Or offer them a significant drop on the price to "remedy" their incompetence to build properly.

I'd walk away from it.

I’m another one who’d walk away from this. No warrant, no sign off, built over drains - who built it and to what spec? Wouldn’t touch it. We had a lovely big detached bungalow which had been built in 1960 - and it turned out some of our drains were made of pitch fibre. These kind of pipes were quite common after the war apparently and are frankly rubbish. Pitch fibre is essentially paper impregnated with tar/ bitumen and sometimes asbestos so they obviously have a limited lifespan. We had ours relined at a cost of appr £6k, not a long run of pipes fortunately, it I would always make sure any survey did a ‘camera up the drains survey’ too.

Southern I think. Or south eastern. That might be trains come to think of it!

@Breadpool 🤣 sounds like you are in the next county a long.

@goody2shooz thank you for this useful information. Before today I had never heard of pitch fibre drains.

I have an UPDATE. Had a very useful phone conversation with someone at the council. We only had the vendors word for it that the inspection chamber was built over. I now have the details of the planning application for next door and can see that as part of the build a new inspection pit was created. Problem solved, daughter should now be able to arrange a proper drain inspection. Fingers crossed it’s not pitch fibre and is in reasonable condition.

I'd be tempted to report to the local council building control. I hate the amount of bodged building.

I suspect it is a 'conservatory' though so no planning needed if permitted development. A build over agreement should have been obtained from the water company though.

If it is being advertised as an extension then it's false advertising if it is a conservatory. Ask a specific question of the estate agent.

Iirc a conservatory must have an external door separating from the house and no central heating connection.

Anything built over a shared sewer can be demolished by the sewerage company to fix any leaks. So that is the risk.

Red flags abounding there. Step away, move on

If she goes ahead and buys it I would suggest getting prices of similar houses that don't have this extension bit in the same street and then adjust the offer.

Final update. The short reply is daughter pulled out of the sale.

The longer reply is this. I phoned the council and was given a link to the neighbours planning permission. This showed that the adjoining house that my daughter was purchasing had a massive extension that far extended what the neighbour planned to do.

I then searched for an aerial view and the discovered the massive extension was visible in 2018 but in 2020 aerial view now showed the much smaller orangery. Why was that demolished? Were they ordered to take it down? No planning permission ever for that address on the council website.

Vendor passed on phone number of the neighbour . A cctv survey of the drain was booked. Video revealed an inspection chamber was hidden under the orangery floor. No permission had been sort from the Water board to build over. It was too risky .

This is the second house purchase my daughter has had to withdraw from this year. Both houses were extended and both failed because of the extension. My view is once is unlucky. Twice there is a pattern here. I have told daughter for Christs sake don’t go after another bloody extended house. Her and her partner are taking a few months off house hunting. Feeling rather bruised from this experience. They are FTB this should be the easiest house purchase of their lives and has turned into a bit of a nightmare