Old property, Loft planning drama.

[Changeforachange]

Omg wise people of MN, please share your experiences.
This is long, sorry.

We're in the torturous process of buying a 1930's 5 bed property from an elderly couple who are buying with their son, all moving in together.

Three months in & we have JUST received our first sight of the legal pack. No BR certs for extensions but they are listed on the council planning/BR register which we have a copy of.

However, there is no reference to the loft which contains 2 bedrooms.

There is a type written piece of paper from the council which gives consent for 2 dwellings to be converted into one, dated 1975, but that's it.
Nothing listed on the councils planning/building regs database about this loft.

The buyers are saying :The loft hasn't been converted' which just isn't helpful at all. I'm assuming they mean it was like that when they moved in 1981, we've gone back to them for clarification.

Does anyone know the implications of this?
Does the 1975 flimsy bit of paper make this a legal development? My thinking is no.

We have no reassurance that it's been done properly other than it looks structurally fine after 50 years - no issues raised in the survey except advice to ensure it's legal & to say it wouldn't achieve current fire regs (escape & doors).

I have so many queries and my solicitor is crap.

With no evidence of approval:

• can these be classed as bedrooms for our sale?
• if no, and it's a 3 bed does this affect our mortgage offer?
• will these bedrooms be covered by insurance if anyone electrical fire started?

For safety, my thoughts are we need an intrusive survey to see if the beams are supported and electrics okay as a minimum. IF the seller agrees 😫

If it shows it's not properly done, I guess we ask for a significant reduction to contribute to the work if we want to carry on?
If it's structurally sound, as it was done 50y ago, can we/they get retrospective planning to the standards at the time?

Any one had a similar experience? Your insight would be gratefully received.

It's not like we're talking about highly complex technical terms, is it?!

In Abras defence, I think it's because we're all quickly dashing messages off on Mumsnet while on a break at work/dealing with life. Typing with several brain-tabs open.

IRL we know the difference and would be much more careful in official correspondence e.g. to our solicitor.

I made the error in my OP. While I don't think it made it an incomprehensible mess, I should indeed have been more diligent.

I appreciate everyone's helpful & insightful input & I'm refreshing my email hourly for quotes from potential new solicitors and perhaps even a response from my existing shit conveyancer (I would possibly die of shock if that happened) to resolve my... or the people I am buying from's... loft drama.

DH refusing to discuss, in a sulk, in the home office 😂

I'm interested to know if it was priced. Obviously a 5 bed where 2 of the rooms are actually converted attic space isn't worth the same as a 5 bed purpose built. I would be careful not to overpay - particularly given the current market and the lack of any info on the conversion standard.

To be fair it is kind of a six bed (massive dressing room could be made a small double quite easily) so.... four beds on middle floor and two loft rooms.

4-bed houses on the same road are priced from 25k more to 150k less.
There's also one 3-bed at 100k less of we were being harsh & not counting the dressing room.

All of these have much better layouts & decor - we've got to do a ton of work to modernise.

I just want to know exactly what the legal implications are I guess. I totally get there are millions of old houses with loft rooms & no permissions.
Do people just shrug, hope for the best & buy them?

Hi
Caveat. Three houses, 2 sets of differing lofts, same questions. I'm not a lawyer, this is just my experience of this.

• can these be classed as bedrooms for our sale?

YES - Windows, staircase, doors.

• if no, and it's a 3 bed does this affect our mortgage offer?

YES, if not legally meeting the definition then the mortgage surveyor would reclassify.

• will these bedrooms be covered by insurance if anyone electrical fire started?

YES unless your survey pointed out electrical issues that needed remediation that you hadn't fixed.

If the loft was done prior to building standards and meets basic levels of definition eg: door, staircase and windows then it can be considered a bedroom for the purposes of a sale and valued as such.

Done prior to regs, won't meet current regs is almost certain. That would be at your expense to retrofit, add fire doors, escape route, sprinkler systems and electric smoke alarms for example.

If done recently then it should be certified and absence of the certs means you won't be able to sell in due course. Your surveyor should be able to tell you when the work was likely done. If the house was sold since, it will be there in black and white if it was previously listed as a 3 bed and is now, magically a 5.

Is it safe? We installed electric smoke alarms and fire doors in a new conversion. Baulked at the cost of a sprinkler system not least whether or not a teenager with a candle would saturate the house in future years. Sprinklers do allow for an open plan layout, fire wardens insist on a clear exit from the house so you need a hallway and a way out of the house.

Escape, if it has aged velux type windows you could if you wished or will be replacing them anyway, install windows hinged right at the top so escape onto the roof /access to the fire brigade is easier. Velux have whizzy balcony style windows now too so they might be nice.

So the last two points are down to personal choice if you feel that the bedrooms are not up to scratch. Presumably since you've progressed this far, they look fine and safe but this is a conveyancing concern that your solicitor can't be bothered to reassure you on.

I bought a Victorian with loft rooms 2 years ago - it also didn’t have any info about this so I paid £50 for an add on insurance to state that if there was ever an issue with it, it would be covered. So I believe a very easy fix!

Just on this point, the add on insurance would almost certainly have been a 'lack of building regs indemnity policy' which only covers the costs associated with the local authority taking enforcement action for the lack of appropriate building regs. The chances of that happening are roughly zero, it won't cover any costs for sub-standard work or any other issues arising.

I'm always amazed at the fuss people make in these situations. It was converted absolutely ages ago and is well out of time for any sort of enforcement action (assuming there was anything to action, even at the time).

By all means get a survey, but if that's all OK and the rooms function in the way what you want (bedrooms?), then I'd crack on without any further thought.

I don't know if wanting your solicitor to advise whether something is going to potentially cause a massive headache with insurance & mortgage & at resale is 'a fuss'.

I guess one man's fuss is anothers due diligence, particularly when spending a small fortune. On something you've seen twice.

I think it would be lovely to float round living in the moment & not giving a shit about boring risk but alas, I'm not made that way.

Thanks for your perspective @BlimbleBee

I would first figure out whether I am buying or selling the property.

U ok Hun?