Old property, Loft planning drama.

[Changeforachange]

Omg wise people of MN, please share your experiences.
This is long, sorry.

We're in the torturous process of buying a 1930's 5 bed property from an elderly couple who are buying with their son, all moving in together.

Three months in & we have JUST received our first sight of the legal pack. No BR certs for extensions but they are listed on the council planning/BR register which we have a copy of.

However, there is no reference to the loft which contains 2 bedrooms.

There is a type written piece of paper from the council which gives consent for 2 dwellings to be converted into one, dated 1975, but that's it.
Nothing listed on the councils planning/building regs database about this loft.

The buyers are saying :The loft hasn't been converted' which just isn't helpful at all. I'm assuming they mean it was like that when they moved in 1981, we've gone back to them for clarification.

Does anyone know the implications of this?
Does the 1975 flimsy bit of paper make this a legal development? My thinking is no.

We have no reassurance that it's been done properly other than it looks structurally fine after 50 years - no issues raised in the survey except advice to ensure it's legal & to say it wouldn't achieve current fire regs (escape & doors).

I have so many queries and my solicitor is crap.

With no evidence of approval:

• can these be classed as bedrooms for our sale?
• if no, and it's a 3 bed does this affect our mortgage offer?
• will these bedrooms be covered by insurance if anyone electrical fire started?

For safety, my thoughts are we need an intrusive survey to see if the beams are supported and electrics okay as a minimum. IF the seller agrees 😫

If it shows it's not properly done, I guess we ask for a significant reduction to contribute to the work if we want to carry on?
If it's structurally sound, as it was done 50y ago, can we/they get retrospective planning to the standards at the time?

Any one had a similar experience? Your insight would be gratefully received.

It's way, way beyond any council enforcement period for either building regs or planning.

There is almost no point in getting retrospective approval for any of this, and I'd be amazed if it's something the vendors are likely to entertain.

If it's been that way for 50 years I think you've realistically got to accept it is what it is at this point.

Unless you have no other option then I’d walk away, although it must have been pretty obvious that the loft conversion wasn’t up to scratch? In my experience there are more dodgy loft conversions than compliant ones!

AFAIK, the council won’t retrospectively grant BR approval based on old regs.

If you want to buy it, take steps to satisfy yourself that it is structurally sound & can be made safe (fire doors etc) or accept the risk/don’t use those rooms for sleeping.

My Victorian cottage has a 1970s loft conversion which is not allowed to be advertised as a bedroom because there is no door on the stairs. Technically it is a 2 bed but I when I bought it the loft photos clearly showed that a 3rd room was being used as a functional bedroom. This is where an estate agent comes into their own - if I searched on Rightmove then it would be listed as 2 bed, but I knew the house.

What does your solicitor say?

Change your conveyancing solicitor. You need someone that can reassure you. In all likelihood you are fine after this time.

AFAIK, the council won’t retrospectively grant BR approval based on old regs

Exactly, you can't get a regularisation certificate for work carried out prior to November 1985.

It’s just a 3 bed house with loft rooms, not bedrooms. Technically they’re not safe to use as bedrooms but I guess people might take the risk. If you like it, make sure you’re paying the 3 bed price not the 5 bed price.

Thank you all for your replies.

I'm not worried about enforcement & - it's the insurance being void & just as you said @khaa2091 whether it's gets valued as a 3 bed for the mortgage.

Its also not obviously dodgy, no cracks etc. There's just no knowing what's under the floorboards.

Very helpful to know a regularisation certificate isn't an option @Mildura thanks.

Listening to you all, I feel the way to go is some basic safety assurance. If they refuse, we have the choice to gamble £££ on it all being fine or walk away.

It’s probably been built to a higher standard than the shambles on offer right now in today’s market

When I sold my mother's 1930s house, the 1970s extension in the loft didn't have building regs because they didn't exist. It had planning permission and we had letters from the buildings officers at the council, saying they'd visited at various points and were satisfied. It had had fire doors fitted and the exit route was a proper staircase, etc.

I hit back hard at any mention of the loft not being 'legal' when the vendor's survey brought this up. It was a four-bedroomed house and I was insistent on this. In the end, the estate agent brought a builder round to talk to the vendor and he explained how it had been constructed. To close the sale, I agreed to a small reduction and told him the house would be back on the market the following morning if he didn't agree (he'd mucked around a bit previously).

@Abra1t

The vendor is the person selling, not the one buying.

Sorry, yes! We were selling and the buyer's survey was an interesting read.

As far as I’m aware building regs were a bit vague through the 1970s and more of guide than anything else. It was 1984 and afterwards that the building regs were more formalised with inspections
So they would count as bedrooms if done in the 1970s. Obviously not to today’s standards though

What the eff are you paying your conveyancing solicitor for if you are not getting the answers you need from them? They should be advising you. If they haven't done so proactively, then ask them.

We have three attic rooms in an Edwardian house. It was built like this. Probably doesn't meet current building regs, but we are not compelled to make older properties meeting current regs.

Bit confused about who is buying and selling - I think you're buying and the elderly couple are selling? Looks like the words have been swapped.

I'm genuinely amazed the number of people who get buyer/seller muddled up!

We're in the torturous process of buying a 1930's 5 bed property from an elderly couple.

I'm buying the old house with loft rooms.

The buyers sellers (the old couple & son) are saying : The loft hasn't been converted' which just isn't helpful at all. I'm assuming they mean it was like that when they moved in 1981, we've gone back to them for clarification.

Apologies readers.
It was a long message & I made an error.

Oh my friend, I have very proactively asked them.

I'm going to look at how we change the conveyancing solicitor & the associated costs as advised by @girlwhowearsglasses

TBH DH is at the end of his tether with it all, the incredibly slow progress is leading to our seller threatening to pull out, so I can see the dolly being chucked out the pram any day.

Planning permission isn't something to now worry about as it's lapsed out of the enforcement time period. No one can tell you to revert it back etc. I guess the more concerns is the status of the works itself. Is it safe is more your concern now. Also resale would it put others off buying in the future

Exactly this.

I've emailed to get quotes to change solicitor.

I've sold a few houses and lost buyers because they didn't have competent solicitors who could reassure them about fairly routine things (like the fact that many Victorian London terraces share a drain to the main sewer - if that was a dealbreaker you'd exclude a LOT of houses, all it needs is someone to explain and put it in context).

If you're using a cheap & cheerful mass conveyancer I'd get a word of mouth recommendation.

I've PMed you

If it were me, my worries would be:

1. Is it legal? I think you're safe here, you're well outside of the enforcement period.
2. Is it safe? You don't have building regs (it sounds like it was built before they came into play) and won't be able to get regularisation now. So I would guess that the only way you can be reassured here is a structural engineer or perhaps a surveyor's report?
3. Am I overpaying? (I wouldn't accept a loft room without planning or regs as a bedroom, for example, and this could affect your mortgage if it is downgraded to a lower number of bedrooms than when you agreed a price)

It sounds like no 1 and 2 are your main worries.

Yes, it’s lucky we have you to correct us.