Would you buy it?

[RuralDream91]

We keep going back and forth on a property we have been to view and I think it might help to have an outside perspective.

4 bedroom (5 bedroom if you include a games room), 3 with ensuite, 1 main bathroom upstairs and a small downstairs toilet downstairs.

Built around 40 years ago so will need new windows, doors, wiring, heating system, insulation, and all new bathrooms/ toilets. We would need to remodel the downstairs as it’s currently a tiny weird kitchen with enormous living space. It’s EPC F and council tax band G. It is run on LPG gas so heating costs are £500 a month (this would have to go).

We would need to spend £150-200k to modernise it and they want £600k. Next door sold for £700k in 2023 fully renovated, double garage, EPC C and council tax band E.

It’s been on the market 4 months and they’ve dropped the price to £600 from £675. Would you offer £420k (30% less than current asking)? There have been no other viewings or offers and they need to sell fast. We can’t justify paying £600k in its current state and given the lack of interest, it seems to be a price issue but we don’t want to offend anyone!

Probably a heat pump.

no-one here knows what the house is worth, or what the vendor will accept but it seems unlikely they will go from thinking it’s worth 600k to accepting 425k without trying a few incremental drops first.

that being said, offer what you thinks it’s worth and walk away if they say no. That’s really all you can do. If you are right and it’s overpriced then no one will buy it and the price will come down.

eta - ignore comments about a low offer being ‘offensive’, you’re buying a house, not appraising them as people. is also say that it’s very normal to value a house at “what it’s worth done” minus “what it costs to renovate” (minus a bit more for the risk and the inconvenience). The idea that people are paying the same for done up houses as renovations really only holds for super high end properties where everything probably will be ripped out regardless. Normal people don’t buy a ‘done’ house and replace everything.

Things have changed since 2022 so unrenovated, seriously dated properties are definitely not going to the same amount as the fully updated ones (providing the update appeals to the majority). The properties that haven't been touched for 30 years are generally priced far too high for the market and are not selling. The sellers and agents don't seem aware how much the costs of refurbishment has risen and the fact that buyers are factoring in far higher prices when making their calculations. I have no idea why the agents are taking so long to catch on.

Absolutely offer that amount, they have 2 choices accept or don't its that simple. I don't understand why some people are saying you can't. You can offer whatever you like

Unfortunately you have described the state of the housing market at the minute. Sellers want way too much money for properties that need loads of work and buyers don’t want to pay those stupid prices as mortgages are expensive. My daughter viewed a property which had just been reduced by £85k to £410k. It needed at least £60k spent on it which would include asbestos specialists! After doing all the work, the property would be lovely but valued at above all the others in the road which could make it difficult to sell. The property is still on the market now down to £400k.

I would view the other properties available. It would save all the stress of getting builders in and a very long time whilst the renovations are carried out. You could put in the very cheeky offer but you wont get it for that.

Good luck anyway.

We viewed a house that was on for £430k and had been on for a year. We offered £390k and it was rejected and the seller was offended. Seemed more than reasonable to me!

Instead of endless debate on mumsnet to justify your thinking, why not just try it and see!

I wouldn’t buy it even if they would accept your low offer. It’s ok saving the money so you have it to get the work done, but that sounds like pretty major work and the stress and upheaval simply isn’t worth it IMO. My DB bought a similar house some years ago and work is still being done on it. He bought it for a good price but has spent a lot. He’s also been very stressed by all the work and new issues discovered while doing the work.

We've done all of that (to an exceptionally high standard) for £125k, and we live in one of the most expensive areas in England.

I think it sounds like a combination of things here, a) you're right it's over priced b) you like your houses totally up to modern standards (nothing wrong with this, but lots of people are fine with old wiring, old bathrooms, my friend has a 1970s kitchen in her cottage and loves it, its like a museum piece, she just changed the oven). I suspect it's not the house for you and you'd be better with a renovated one. Doing everything you want sounds like a money pit, and to be fair to the owners there is stuff that's not "needed" (e.g. swapping the lpg for mains gas). A nice high spec kitchen and from the sounds of it 4 bathrooms would be 60k already at least. Remember for wiring if it all comes out then everything needs replastering which is expensive, treating damp can be endless as it might not be the windows causing it.
Ultimately, our windows in our flat were original victorian sashes, someone should have replaced them but we never did, just got them serviced at much lower cost. A surveyor would say they "needed" replacing. If the boiler works, it doesn't need replacing, some boilers can do a hell of a length of time, a surveyor will always say "it's old, cost in a replacement" to cover themselves.
I guess what I'm saying is - you clearly love up to spec, new, within official dates of everything houses. No issue with it, but lots of people really don't see that as a need. The sellers clearly don't see the need and have priced it thinking "throw in a new kitchen and some paint". The true value will be somewhere in the middle.
Offer your low offer if you genuinely want to do the work and thats how much itll cost you (definitelt dont over pay), it clearly is very much over priced if nobody is viewing it. Also don't be surprised if they bat back your list of "needs" because you need them, but others may not. My parents really care about EPCs and included a new boiler and solar panels in their shopping list for their new house. However, the boiler worked fine it was old and not everyone cares about epc rating or money cost (our house is an E and we couldn't care less, we've replaced nothing they suggested and our boiler was from 1996 and worked fine so long as I represurise it every few months) - it's all about personal perspective.

The property would have been valued with these potential works in mind. You’re chancing your luck 🙄

The EPC is currently band F. They'll never be able to get the level of insulation required for a heat pump to be a viable option and I'm a huge fan of heat pumps!

OP cannot possibly know how many viewing there have been.

EVERYONE who posts on here wanting to make wildly low offers always 'backs it up' by saying:

1. theres been no viewings, interest, offers

(how on earth would they be privvy to that private info, do they work for the EA and book the viewings? EA don't work for buyers they aren't allowed to give out that info also most EA viewer aren't the ones that book so have no idea. I bought a house that JUST hit the market but was told by the viewing EA that it had had loads of interest/offers in the previous weeks, she didn't even know it was brand new stock).

and

2. theres a much cheaper, much bigger, much better just renovated turnkey house for sale a few doors down

(then buy that one... honestly making up fake houses is the stupidest argument, obviously it either fake or not comparable or you wouldn't be messing around with the 'expensive and bad' house)

Sellers and agents often talk to buyers so presumably one or both told her that there had been no viewings.
It's pretty simple. Buyers can offer whatever figure they feel a house is worth. Sellers can see yes or no or try to negotiate. There's no need for people to get offended. It's a business negotiation. At present, the market is falling in most areas so buyers tend to have the upper hand. In 2021, sellers had the upper hand by a large margin. @RuralDream91 is very unlikely to secure the house for £420 but these things do happen, even if it is months down the line.

While its in the range of 'not offensive' offer a lot of houses that have been on 6+ month or a year+ especially if they are top end price are on not because they didn't get offers/interest but because the seller doesn't NEED to sell but is testing waters and only would for the asking price.

People assume long list time mean sellers a desperate to sell and will accept low offers but it often the opposite. In fact many even at normal price will have seen a dream house so listed theirs and missed out and now don't need to move but are still under contract so can't remove it from sale but are no longer interested in selling.

They are called unmotavated sellers. The seller probably wouldn't have accepted even if you offered £425,000.

it will take some work but they are talking about insulating and changing the windows, I assume they’ll also add loft insulation etc. they’ve also said the same property which has been renovated up the road is a C so it’s perfectly possible but would cost a bit of money. We are currently renovating a Victorian property and the products available to internally insulate walls now are incredible!

sorry should have quoted @Bluebellwood129

Agreed, however the property is vacant and has been for the year as the seller has moved out and gone 2 hours away. She does need to sell but doesn’t need the money so she’s just being stubborn and not accepting the worth of the property.

the fact the other property is 2 council tax bands lower but sold for 700k after "modernising" suggests that 600k in need of work on a band G is not wildly off the mark.
An offer of 420 would label you as chancers to be ignored.

complete replacement of 40 year old electrics is a vanity issue, not a must do issue.

If 700 is ceiling price and it's going to take 150k to modernise that's the window and they have already knocked 75k off for cosmetics.

520k maybe 500k is where I'd start based on this as it isn't the sellers job for you to change layout and refit everything all at once.

Windows can wait as long as they open close that'll save 30-40k. Knocking down walls and redesign is fully your cost.
As is choosing to upgrade wiring and heating.

So the rest is where the negotiation is.

I recon 500-550 is where it'll land.

Can yous does this house OP. It's not the sellers job to make a money pit of a house affordable for you.

Greed!

Why do you want it? Have you looked at others in a similar state of disrepair ?

Do you mean greed on the part of the sellers or agents? If it's agents, this is totally illogical behaviour because it means that they are making no money as these houses are not selling. Pricing more accurately is better for them.
People who choose to price far too high end up getting less on average for their homes than they would have if they had priced them lower (nearer what the market will pay).

Your exceptionally high standards are your high standards though, what you consider high end others may consider it mid range, for that amount of money I doubt you have had wooden sash bespoke windows made from Oak, or a Devol hand made kitchen for example.

None of this is a reason to drop as far as you are asking.
You are buying the land - which is the real cost - as well as the building.
If I were the vendor I wouldn't consider such an offer for a moment.

I would in preference go for a property with a lower council tax band. That will cost you a small fortune and they are very difficult to change. Unless you are getting significantly more acreage, go for the modernised property if you think it’s been done to a high spec.

otherwise, make the offer of what it’s worth to you. You might not get it, but you’ll regret nothing. This is the mortgage you will be paying off for the next 25/30 years