Damp in Housing Survey - Reduction in Price?

[miffy1990]

I made an offer on a flat in a perfect location last week. Me and my daughter are very excited about it, and it really is perfect for her.

It was on for 550k, they accepted 540k, however said it was on for 600k previously. I just got a survey done however, and he raised the following issues:

1. The flat needs generally updating, cracked tiles, worn carpets, terrible kitchen and bathroom units, etc - this I was aware of and planned to do anyway.
2. The bathroom and kitchen floor needs to be redone as tiles don't have the correct underlying support - hence the cracking.
3. There are a few rotten floorboards and joists which need to be replaced.

The more serious issue:

1. The roof is leaking. This leak has caused the wall which is shared by both the kitchen and living room to be very wet, he used the word 'soaking', as well as the bedroom directly below it. It's an exterior brick wall.

He suggested I raise it to find out whose responsibility it is to repair the roof - it is a share of freehold - so whether that responsibility falls on me as the roof is directly above me or is shared amongst the flats - and whether there is already an awareness of the issue with a plan of action agreed and in place. The guy who lives there (tenant) mentioned he has been asking about it for the past year however nothing has been done about it.

I have a roofer going there tomorrow to survey the costs. What would you do at this point? What would be a fair reduction of costs? Does anyone have any experience of these issues, is it a no go or actually reasonably easy to solve.

Thanks so much for any help.

I would move on. If the current tenant has been raising it for a year and nothing has happened you won’t know if it has caused other damage or issues; and more importantly these are the kind of intransigence you will have to deal with every time you have an issue that needs to be dealt with.

I’d worry that there were other issues in the building that have been left and you may end up with an expensive cash call.

Flats only work if everyone wants to take care of the building.

@Tacras Thanks for your input - I'm wondering whether anyone else in the building knows about it, it's the top floor flat. Two brothers own and rent out the flat - it could be that they were trying to make as much profit as possible and so not sorting out issues or flagging them. It could also be the case of what you said - general lack of building care by everyone within the building, it's share of freehold.
The thing is - it's within catchment of the school my daughter wants to go to and has been told she would be number 1 on the waiting list if we moved there. There's nothing else nearby at all that we can afford.

Agree with PP.
That level of damage suggests total lack of maintenance. You are unlikely to find out who is responsible for the roof etc until you get into the legal process, unless there is something in the Land Registry documents. (Make sure you go to the .gov site not any of the others advertising the documents).
The fact that tenant has been asking about repairs for a year is bad news in my view, and I suspect huge backlog of maintenance.
walk away is my advice!

@Daisymay2 Thanks for your input. I got a Level 3 Building Survey - so am hoping that everything raised was the extent of it, it seems very thorough. Guess so many flats in London that are tenanted the owners just try and squeeze as much money out without putting money in. I guess I'm of the mindstate of - anything can be fixed - and if they can cover the cost I don't mind the process. It's a ten year move for us and we currently live in a different area. Can I ask why you'd walk away - because of possible extra costs or just time and effort and stress?

This mornings "Homes Under the Hammer" included a small flat with flying freehold and no direct access to it's own back garden. The lady that bought it hoped to extend into the attic but would need planning in a conservation area and permission from the housing association to put dormer windows in the roof.

When the programme visited back the flat was stunning with an extended very nice looking entrance porch, beautiful finish, two extra bedrooms in the attic and a steel balcony with steps to the garden.

The point of my story is a lot of us would not be bothered with the hastle - we'd hear "need permission" and "conservation area" and throw in the towel. The lady made over a 100k on the value estimates but chose to live there instead of sell as it was so nice.

OP I would say if you are resilient and can make things happen (and have some budget left after purchasing for repairs) then negotiate, do your due diligence (any other repairs needed in the building? Who pays? Is there any money in the management pot - are you allowed to see the accounts? Does the service charge/ground rent increase and what is the formula for this/ years left on the lease? and if it all looks good go for it! If you bought it might be possible for you to get your own roofer to at least do a temporary repair to stop further damage.

If a leak under your washing machine has you in tears and asking "why me?" then walk away.

I have a friend with very similar issues. She lives on the second floor, and the building roof is leaking. The water is soaking through all the flats below. She can’t do anything about it because fixing the roof is expensive, and all the flat owners need to agree to pay for it—one of them refuses. Now she’s stuck and can’t sell her flat because no one wants to buy it in that condition.
Definitely walk away!

The fact that this issue was raised and nothing was done is very alarming. You might be able to do something about it if you really push, but it will take a lot of time and be a huge headache.

If they say it’s up to all flat owners to fix, but the ground floor one refuses to pay, it could get difficult forcing them to pay up. Or sour relations if you move in and the first thing you want is several thousand pounds out of them for a roof fix

If it is up to just the top floor then you have to take on all the cost yourself. Lose lose in my book.

what about when downstairs notices some subsidence or damp or downstairs sell and the damp they have been ignoring for years is flagged and you get a bill for that?

badly maintained flats are a money pit. And if there’s no management company you are left with owners with different sets of competing priorities on whether to spend money. You want the building to be sound because you are going to live there for 10 years- someone else is renting it out and wants to maximise their returns-someone else has just lost their job and doesn’t want to spend anything.

Why would I walk away. Having a roof repaired is disruptive, but dealing with the damp described by your surveyor is likely to be long and drawn out. There’s likely to be lots of damp in the flat, and the implications of the kitchen and bathroom tiles suggest that stuff has been done badly and the more you try to do the more problems you might find. The floorboards and joists rotting also suggest issues. Possibly linked to long term ingress of water.
Until the roofer tells you what the likely costs are it’s difficult to know what reductions you might need but personally if this is your only option I would ask a builder to price the work needed to deal with the very wet walls. Will they need repointing for example?
I would anticipate it being a money pit.

Thanks all - hmmm - the flat I'm in now had no electrics or central heating when I bought it. I had to do absolutely everything, rebuild walls, replaster, add floors, add the kitchen and bathroom, install central heating and rewire, it was disgusting when I bought it and is now a very beautiful flat. I'm not adverse to fixing things - @Winter2020 - sounds like a similar page to what I'm on, I'm OK with putting effort into things, and quite enjoy making something bad into something good. However - of course - don't want it to end up being beyond what I'd ask them to take off the asking price for me to do the work.

@Katherina198819 that's so counter-intuitive from the other flat owners, such a shame - I've definitely experienced it in rentals, my ceiling fell through in one, and they just bodged it up - my friend is in a rental right now in Hampstead and her ceiling periodically caves in and leaks... such a beautiful property but such a shame it hasn't had proper care. What a nightmare for your friend.

Your solicitor has given you the information you need to get out of them.
What is the situation with maintenance and who’s responsible for what?
Personally I’d say you are looking at spending 100k on roof, repairs, kitchen, damp, sanitary etc.
Is it an old solid wall house?

Over 1 year and nothing has been done about a leaking roof? I wouldn’t proceed with this purchase.

in most cases with leasehold properties, I’m sure you are aware you are responsible for the inside of your property and - if it’s yours - the garden. and possibly your parking space/garage.

The roof is down to the freeholder(s) generally, the outside of the building is generally down to the freeholder(s), the communal areas are generally down to the freeholder(s). The freeholder(s) can charge administrative costs to getting a cleaner in once a week for getting the communal hallway hoovered and dusted, the front door washed and the letterbox polished. If it’s a communal garden again administrative costs can be put on by the freeholder(s) for gardening companies.

How many flats in the block?
is it a conversion of a house?
Have you met the neighbour(s)?

if you got the repairs done, and the other joint freeholder(s) refused to pay, would you swallow the costs or sue them and possibly end up with neighbours from hell, no money because a judge may understand that they can’t afford and put a lien on their property, which may never be sold so you never get your money back

Personally, I would go in a lot lower with the work undone or agree to the £540,000 if the work is done to the surveyors satisfaction.

I'd say don't panic and pull out until you get some certainty about the extent of the problem. Is it high rise with flat roof or maybe two-storey with a pitched roof? Many 'roof leaks' are actually caused by blocked gutters/outlets/downpipes due to them becoming clogged with leaves etc, especially because clearing them out isn't often straightforward due to access (two or three storey might need a cherry picker for half a day, but a very straightforward solution). But such blockages can cause rainwater from a pitched roof to cascade down the wall under the eaves. Maybe a solid wall if it has caused penetrating damp. Watch out for the roofer trying the create work out of it. The roof tiles might be fine. Water from a roof leak won't be contaminated with hygroscopic salts unless in the vicinity of a chimney breast, so the plaster could dry out given time. The soft floorboards and joists? If the joists bear into the damp wall, that would explain it. If not, and a ground floor, it needs to be checked whether there is enough sub-floor ventilation (air bricks not blocked up etc).

@HoppyFish thanks so much - god it’s to hard! I had a roofer go there today who said it’s a problem with the chimney stacks - it’s the top floor of a big red brick house with several flats in it, he did also say though that the roof is very very old and really needs replacing altogether as he can see various fixes which obviously keep failing, and balconies that need to be rebuilt etc. He said the chimney stack issue would likely cost around 5k - and then fixing the damp on top of that. He said though that ultimately the whole roof needs replacing and will be around 50k that needs to be taken off.

Yes it’s difficult to know how to get to the bottom of things, and to know who to trust. I’m a surveyor, and maybe it’s an awful thing to say, but I generally don’t trust most builders. So the chimney issue might be flashings that need replacing, a vented cap putting over the pot, or maybe some repointing of the stack. That should stop the damp problem. I don’t think the landlord / freeholder will want to replace the roof covering if it’s still watertight. I think the cost of such work is often split between the tenants via service charge, although maybe depends on the number tenants.

With the information from the roofer, it’s a no go.
Sounds like it’s the original tiles, they don’t last forever. Even if you buy it and the roof survives initially, in 10 years it will be even closer to replacement.
How are the enquiries going over the sink fund, management company, liability for damp/roof etc etc?

Don’t even think about negotiating price reduction until you have the information about the lease and how costs of repairs etc are divided. Also is there a management company and how are decisions made. If it is costs shared equally but individual refuse to share the costs you could have serious problems!

How long is the lease @miffy1990 if it is leasehold & are there sufficient years remaining on it?
Secondly as you say (& have experience of) unscrupulous landlords/freeholders do the least possible maintenance & as you have no control over how or when they will carry out any work - all your experience of renovating & doing work on previous properties sadly counts for nothing if you have no say or control over (pretty major works) that will prevent you from even getting started in your own flat.
Walk away OP. It’s desperate that this is the state of housing stock & the prices are so unobtainable, but don’t let this push you into settling on this one. I don’t think it will go well. Freeholders also disappear, die, hide behind other companies & move overseas. I could not sell my leasehold flat until serious structural repairs were carried out & the only way I was able to get the FH to do them was to prove he was contravening the tens of the private rental licence scheme that my local council thankfully operated where he was leaving his property at risk of collapse to not only his own tenants, but me his leaseholder! I dread to think what would have happened had he lived overseas or could not be contacted. But even then communication was extremely slow & the works were horribly protracted costing me thousands in additional rent while the works were carried out (which he refused to pay) as my ground floor flat was left with props holding up the floor above & a building site for months.
Walk away!

It’s share of freehold… so shared responsibility. Would the mortgage company even accept it with such works needing doing? It’s gutting as it gets my daughter into the school she wants and there’s nothing else nearby for that cost. I’ve sent the sellers a message with my findings and said that the roofer told me to ask for 30-50k off, and then asked who has responsibility and if there are already any major works due in place… so frustrating.