Patio too high

[ImagineRainbows]

We are in the process of having the garden landscaped. The landscapers completely removed the garden, levelled it and started putting a new patio in. Having looked at it today I see they have done the ground level higher than it was previously. This was never discussed with us. More worryingly I think it’s now too high and will breach the proof course. The gardener says it’s fine as there is a gravel border to soak away water. Except the bricks are still wet at the bottom so I don’t think this is adequate.

What are your thoughts? What would you be asking for at this point?

Any update?

The original company haven’t returned since Tuesday (so have left it unfinished) and are ignoring all our texts and calls.

We’ve had a different company come and have a look at it who are writing us an ‘expert report’ on all the issues they have found and they have quoted 5.5k to fix it.

They have said it is too high, some areas touch the house so this is where the bigger problem is. Even the areas that have a gravel border, it’s insufficient depth and the concrete below the stones is too high and touching the house.

There is not an appropriate slope and so when the stones are sealed in-between this will lead to pooling water on the patio as it’s too flat.

The mortar under the stones is also inadequate and mostly sand so the stones are not well adhered and move when walked on.

The plastic spacers have been left in and partially filled over so they are viable.

The wooden beams around the grass have concrete next to them so no space for them to swell which will cause the concrete and potentially the flag stones to crack.

Basically they have said the whole thing needs to come up and start again. Literally devastated!

I have another company coming to look next week for a third opinion and I will be filing a section 75 claim.

They original company need to be given the opportunity to remedy their work. They could take up the row of slabs closest to the house, sort out the concrete or whatnot and relay the slabs. Slabs always move (unless set on mortar) until the gaps are filled. Wooden beams seem to be set above ground level, but if they need to be moved, shouldn’t be difficult.
Good you have a third opinion coming. Don’t tell them what the second company have said or your opinions. See what they say.

This happened to us. When we stood on our side path our heads were nearly over next doors fence and the side gate would not open. They still tried to argue that it was right! In the end they had to take it all up and drop the patio down to the level it was at previously. “Landscaping” is completely unregulated and this results in any old cowboy pretending they’re experts.

That’s my plan. As the company who looked today have wrote a whole list of what’s wrong. The original company is ignoring me. Since I raised these issues they haven’t answered a single phone call or text message.

I have cropped out company details but this is the list of issues. They pointed out things I hadn’t noticed also.

I hope the second guy’s patio skills are better than his grammar.
Do you have any photos of the manhole?

@HellsBalls No I don’t. It used to have one of those manhole covers that you can put the patio flag in. It was supposed to be reused when the patio was changed but the gardener said he checked the manhole and the pipes are not in use so he paved over it. This may be true but feel like we should have been asked first.

Keep in mind that the second guy wants your work.

the sleepers for example will be able to “swell” on the other side. It’s very normal to have them fixed on the patio side. Ours are fixed with resin and there have been no issues in ten years

It will be interesting to see what the third guys say. As I’ve mentioned, ripping it all out and starting again would be the last resort if the only issue is the height compared to the DPC, which is relatively easy to remedy. What is the situation with the inspection chamber?

How did you pay for the work?

@HellsBalls It’s a lot worse than we thought it was. We were told we couldn’t walk on yet so hadn’t been able to go and have a proper look but the landscaper took loads of photos and it’s horrendous. Here are just a couple showing the poor quality of work. The issue is not simply that it’s too high.

@BingoDingoDog We paid half via credit card, half via bank transfer and the remaining £1000 we have not paid.

More photos

What grouting did you specify? The quality does look poor. The chipped slabs can be replaced, the out of line one(s) cut to size and relaid, turf relaid, wood knocked into alignment etc.
The deal breaker though is that they have not primed the slabs first. There is no practical way to rectify that. Maybe they were not experienced in porcelain or just did not bother.
Also you have not withheld enough money on them. Is there any recourse with the credit card payment? Unless they are a well established firm, with a reputation to protect, they won’t be coming back to fix all that for a grand.

I hope you have some success getting your money back @ImagineRainbows, it is so disappointing when tradesmen let you down .

@HellsBalls We didn’t specify grout but the quote says resin grout. From what the new landscaper told us, they have jet washed it too soon and blown it all out and over the surface of the slabs.

The slabs out of line means that the entire row is out of line so it’s not as simple as just cutting it down as the pattern has been thrown off as a result so the whole row will need moving.

They were the ones who suggested porcelain! We initially asked for Indian stone but he said he can get porcelain cheaper as that brought it closer to our budget.

In terms of how much we withheld we didn’t have a choice. The agreement was all materials up front and labour paid weekly as he had to pay the subcontractors. We withheld the last week once we saw the issue with the height. Prior to that it was looking good from the window view and he kept saying we can’t walk on it yet so we didn’t get a good luck and had no reason to withhold it at the time. I won’t make that mistake again and will be thoroughly checking it!

I agree they are not going to come back. As soon as we raised the issues they have gone silent and are not answering us. I am hoping we can file a section 75 claim and get at least some of it back and if not we have legal cover on the house insurance so will try and get some back that way.

Thankfully most of the materials can be reused hence the new quote of 5.5k to fix it is mostly labour. Going to see what the other person says when they view it and go from there.

I can imagine you are very pissed off with all this. At least it can be rectified before summer, although the legal/compensation will drag on and on.
Please post what the next guy says. Ask them if you lower it to 150mm below the dpc, can you still get the fall away from the house.

@HellsBalls I’m disappointed of course yes. We are getting a puppy in spring so have been trying to get it sorted before then to make it not as annoying when out there at 3am toilet training.

The old patio was 2 bricks below and had a fall away from the house so should be fine, although the old patio didn’t go right to the fence. I’m hoping it can be fixed without having to take it all up again but so far it’s not looking promising. But the next person (who we have found on trustatrader with excellent reviews and lots of photos of porcelain he has done) may have some ideas of how to do so. Fingers crossed!

@HellsBalls Well the person that came out this week quoted £15k to fix it, which is more than we paid in the first place, and claimed all the tiles can’t be reused and we need new turf etc. So we’ve disregarded his opinion as that seems insane and I don’t believe that the tiles can’t be reused with a few new ones to replace the damaged ones.

Trying to get someone else to look at it but finding it really hard to even get people out to look at it sometimes. They don’t turn up and stop replying to messages. One of them wanted to know who did the garden in the first place and I wasn’t willing to tell them at this stage when we potentially have court action against them and so he then wouldn’t come.

The original company have now replied to us and dismissed our concerns saying there is nothing wrong with it and the few areas of cracked tiles etc. are ‘snagging’ and will be resolved. Dismissed the concerns about the tiles not being adhered well and moving around saying they were primed and there is nothing wrong with them and it’s normal to be able to lift them up. Offered to come and fix the areas of snagging but I’m not sure I want them to when they are still claiming nothing is wrong with the adherence they are going to keep going in the same way and worried they will just make it worse by damaging the tiles that haven’t been put down yet.

Now they have offered to complete/snag you have to let them, otherwise in any civil action, they will simply use it as a defense.
Interesting there is a £10k price difference between the two quotes, that is not explained by the cost of replacing the slabs.

Just make sure the original contractors expose the two courses of bricks and extend that ramp an extra couple or three slabs. Should be easy to get them to do the rest (relay and dodgy turf, adjust wood, replace chipped slabs, repoint where necessary).
The pointing, if resin, should hold it all together. And walking on it will soon expose any movement.

I’m not surprised that someone has declined to come out . Many years ago we hired someone to do a block driveway , the same people had done several in the area that looked fine . After day 1 my husband wasn’t happy and told them to leave , at which point our drive was half dug up so we reached an agreement and gave them a few hundred pounds . We then had a right job getting anybody to take over as it turned out that the original bunch were known troublemakers and lots of people were wary of getting on the wrong side of them .

They are refusing to do that. The only snagging they are offering is replacing the 2 chipped tiles. They are not willing to solve the issue of it being too high or the issue of the tiles not being adhered at all. So it isn’t going to solve the problems.

But if this ends up in court they will say we offered to go back and fix things and that you wouldn’t allow them to do so which won’t look good . Better off letting them return , email a list of your problems and tell them you want it all fixed by x date and then see what happens .

It doesn't matter if the concrete below the stones is touching the house - in fact it would be expected to, as long as it is one course below the damp proof course (dpc) (with the stones to stop splashback, since in an ideal world it would be two brick courses below). Also, it is fine for flags to be laid on sand. I haven't seen the job and I'm not saying it's fine, but I just thought I'd comment those two points. Anything such as flags which touch the house ABOVE the dpc (inside floor level usually) could cause damp internally (breaches the dpc).

I’ve got the text messages though where I’ve sent him the list and he’s argued them all and said he will come and replace the cracked tiles only.

I’ve got 2 reports from 2 different professionals now, both of which say it needs to come up and be relaid and I’ve got a third coming to see it today.