Tooting/Mitcham v South Norwood?

[Acapulco12]

Hi all, looking at buying a 2-3-bed house in south London, as it makes sense for my work commute (office near St James Park, and work now asking for us to be in 3-4 days a week).

In terms of areas, I have in mind South Norwood and the Mitcham end of Tooting (area around Tooting station), as they both have good transport links and are in budget. What do you think of them as potential areas to consider?

I visited S Norwood for the first time last week and liked it as an area and it’s got good transport links. I’ve got a viewing coming up in Mitcham/Tooting next week, so plan to visit it properly then, but have already been once before to visit a friend who lived there, and thought it seemed okay.

Both seem to be a mix of up and coming and gentrified - perhaps S Norwood more gentrified? Both have green spaces fairly nearby (S Norwood country park and Tooting has Mitcham common and Tooting Bec a good walk/bus ride away). Tooting seems to have better transport links as it’s not too far from Colliers Wood tube, and it’s also more central than SN, as it’s in zone 3 rather than zone 4.

The other thing to consider is S Norwood has the Crystal Palace stadium in it, which I think is quite cool as I love football and I think it’s good for the area to have it, but I’m wondering what it would be like to live around there on match days? Would it get very noisy and crowded?

Grateful for your thoughts! Thanks!

We live not too far from where you are looking in Mitcham. People on MN absolutely hate Mitcham and no doubt the usual posters will be along to slate it. But we've been in our house for 7yrs ish now and we've been very happy. When we bought, it was the only place we could afford that would get us a house + garden and worked for mine and DH's very different commutes at the time.

I commute to Westminster from Colliers Wood tube and generally that's fine. From Tooting station, you also have the Thameslink option to Blackfriars as well. We like being close to Morden Hall Park and go there most weekends. Its much nicer than Mitcham Common in our view. There are also lovely walks and cycle routes up and down the Wandle Trail. For meals / drinks, we used to either go to Merton Abbey Mills / Wimbledon (15mins on the tram) / Tooting but less so since we had DC. Colliers Wood high street has a few coffee shops / hairdressers that I've used. If DC are a consideration, there's a soft play for kids in Merton Abbey Mills plus DC do swimming lessons and ballet / football in Mitcham and some of the playparks have all just been nicely renovated. My DC are in nursery and we like the one we use - plus we just picked a primary school but there were 3 that we really liked and would be happy for DD to go to.

We avoid Mitcham town centre - it's quite run down in my view and Merton council basically neglect it in favour of the wealthier parts of the Borough. There are plans to build lots of new flats in the centre so i dont know if that will change things for the better or worse? But we manage quite fine with never going there to be honest unless I need something specific from one of the shops. And up near the station presumably you'd head more into Tooting instead?

If you like football, there is also Wimbledon stadium at Plough Lane, which is easy to get to from Mitcham on the 200 bus, plus there is the local Tooting & Mitcham FC.

Mitcham is such a big area that you just really need to be careful about doing research on the specific roads you are looking at. There are a couple of Mitcham fb groups where you could also ask for advice. But I think that's the same in most parts of London so it's just about being thorough.

In Mitcham you need to pick your area carefully. It varies more than any other part of South London I know. Tooting, I don't know at all.

South Norwood is better on the east side of Norwood Junction (towards the boundary with Bromley) than the west. On the west side, I wouldn't look anywhere beyond Selhurst station. We never noticed any real problems from the football ground other than crowds of people immediately around the ground and walking up from Norwood Junction. Never any serious trouble that I can recall.

I commuted Norwood Junction - London Bridge for a couple of years and it was a good quick route. Certainly I wouldn't say the Northern Line was significantly quicker.

If you are considering those areas, I would add Penge to your list. There are several train stations nearby - Penge East (fast trains to Victoria), Penge West (on the Overground as well as trains to London Bridge), plus Anerley, Kent House, Birkbeck stations.

Massive park at the top end (Crystal Palace Park). Amazing park at the Beckenham end (Beckenham Place Park). Lots of smaller parks e.g. Cator Park.

Crystal Palace FC is a family club. Yes, it's busy around match days (driving can be a pain), but you don't really get trouble. Avoid the areas around Thornton Heath. As PP said, east of Norwood Junction is probably best. North of the high street is good but the closer you get to Crystal Palace, the more expensive it is.

Thanks Gekko!

Re Tooting/Mitcham, what do you think of these 2 houses (both near Tooting station)? I’m going to view both this week.

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/156240512

www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/156954842

I prefer the second one by miles, personally (mainly as it’s a bit cheaper than the first much and in much better condition, so I could potentially move in straightaway without needing to do any immediate work). The only downside is it is small (843 ft). However, it would initially be just for me to live in, to start with, and there is potential to extend up and out, so I think I could easily make it into a bigger house (e.g. at least 1,500 sq ft, I reckon). The estate agent says a couple of offers have already been made on it.

I will caveat by saying I don't know Tooting and Mitcham very well - mainly to drive through on my way to and from other places. I know South Norwood and areas to the north and east of there much better. Mitcham always strikes me as an area that was once very nice but has gradually been built upon in a non-sympathetic way and now has no real character left. Tooting - some people love the buzz but it would do my head in. Too congested along the main roads and too lively for me. However, areas can grow on you. Lots of areas of London are visually / initially not so appealing but get under your skin once you really get to know the area and its people.

With regard to the houses. The second one is 100% better. Unless you have lots of spare cash and are looking for a project I'd avoid the other. Looks like an absolute money pit. Once that wallpaper comes off, the plaster is coming with it. It probably wants a complete rewire and all sorts of other things that will bring you no aesthetic joy.

I'm very familiar with the layout of the Framfield Road property. Very typical inter-war house - 2 good sized bedrooms, 1 box room (great as a study for WFH). You can knock through the kitchen and dining room if you want a more open plan space, but it's already tastefully decorated so you can move in and be happy immediately. If you need more space, it's easy to add a loft conversion. We did exactly that on a similar spec property. You then get a fabulous large light and airy master bedroom and a second bathroom without losing any space off the first floor (they just return the stairs up the existing stairwell). Then you have a house with 3 good-sized doubles - perfect for growing families.

Let us know how you get on. But if you like that sort of property, do look at Penge and also Elmers End. Lots of similar housing stock. Penge East to Victoria is 21 minutes - it's a fast line and then a short walk along to your office.

What kind of thing do you like to do in your spare time? Knowing what's important to you outside of work will help with recommending areas.

I know all areas very well. If you are talking about Crystal Palace football club, they play at Selhurst park which isn’t Crystal Palace sports stadium. That is the athletics / swimming (if it ever reopens). I would add Addiscombe into your list of places to consider. Really leafy and you have east Croydon and Norwood junction stations which both have fast trains into London - I go from Norwood junction and I’m in London Bridge in ten mins. South Norwood is a great area in my view - around South Norwood lakes or country park are all really safe and leafy streets. You might consider towards Kent house station too. I also wouldn’t write off Croydon which as per a previous poster always has a load of people come along and slate it, but your budget will go much further and there are some great parts. Avoid anything around the hospital and Thornton heath high street basically.

Mitcham wise it’s got its good and bad parts. Not lived there but around Mitcham common is lovely. Agree with the above - avoid the high street and its hoards of chavs chucking chicken wings at each other. And then Colliers Wood / tooting. Both areas have really come up in the world the past decade and tooting in particular is really gentrified. Lots of great pubs, the common for fun days out and if you like a curry you’ll be in heaven. There’s not really any places I’d avoid but your budget will be pushed if you need a house / larger flat with garden etc. We were looking there recently and a nothing flashy family home is 750k upwards.

For me out of your choices it would be South Norwood 100% as you’ll get more for your money, it’s got a lovely up and coming family vibe and the trains from the stations are super fast, super frequent and in the case of east Croydon run all night for the Gatwick services so you can always get home from a night out / late night at work.

I agree the second one is much nicer. Id say be cautious about extending. Our house was a similar size and layout to the second one when we bought. As pp said, the small front bedroom makes a perfect office. When we had DD1, we did a loft conversion to give us 3 double bedrooms, but we are probably not going to do the kitchen extension as it will take too much garden space and will really push us to the ceiling for our road. Instead we are going to rearrange the internal layout to be a kitchen diner plus separate living room. We think the loft has made its money back and we did it 3yrs ago, so depending on how long you are planning on staying, be careful you dont spend more than it might add. Easy to do when build costs are so high (unless you are handy and can do lots of the work yourself!)

Thanks all!

Re the second house I linked to in my post above (the small-ish one in Tooting/Mitcham), do you think it’ll be a problem that it’s fairly small (834 sq ft)? Given it’s just me who’ll be living in it for now, I think it should be okay, but keen to hear if I’m being realistic or not! I’m viewing it soon, so will have a better idea after the viewing as to whether it seems too small or not.

As I mentioned in my post, and others have also mentioned, there is potential to extend upwards (and maybe out, although as @MitchamMum says, that might not be such a good idea).

the location of the first house is better imo hence why it's £££.

Don't buy somewhere that you think will increase in value as that's too unpredictable in this climate.

Tooting is buzzy if you are young & lots on your doorstep. You would need to travel a bit in South Norwood. Some of SN is in Croydon which is bankrupt so check council tax.

In terms of my preference between the two areas, I think South Norwood is still definitely a possibility, but I think Tooting is a more convenient location overall.

I currently work in St James’ Park/Westminster, but that may change, and whilst both areas are convenient for that sort of commute, Tooting/Mitcham is more central and closer to more transport options.

I also love going into central London and want to do that as easily as possible, as I love going to theatres/concerts/restaurants in Soho/Southbank, and I’m leaning towards Mitcham as an area rather than S Norwood. And I also like the idea of potentially getting the bus home from central London - either for the whole journey or for part of the way - which I think would be possible if I lived in Mitcham but not in S Norwood.

Also, I hate to ask, as it makes me sound awful, but out of S Norwood and Mitcham, which one generally has more potential for further development and gentrification? I think that’s an important thing to bear in mind, and I’ve heard some people say Mitcham has less potential than SN (although I know this is very subjective), but keen to hear your thoughts. I just want to keep an eye on the future and how buying in these areas might work out as a future investment, to help me move further up the property ladder as and when needed. Thanks!

I think predicting future gains is very difficult as I already said. Tooting has some good schools which attracts people but birth rates have really dropped so who knows.

South Norwood has already started the gentrification process. Mitcham I can’t imagine will be any time soon but who knows. Remember when Catford got trendy about a decade ago - didn’t see that one coming!

We felt like Mitcham was starting to gentrify a bit in 2019 (spillover from CW and Tooting) and basically covid stopped it. Mainly because if people didn't need to be in the office, they stopped looking at buying in outer London when they could go somewhere nicer further out with fewer days commuting in. Maybe the push to get everyone back in the office will change that? But I'm not sure how long it will take. Some places take decades and we'll have moved on by then!

Having said that, a house near us recently sold for 575k, which i would never have thought possible, so if those sorts of prices continue, there will be a natural sort of gentrification due to the salaries needed to get a mortgage of that size. Might take longer to spread to the town centre / commercial areas though.

Schools in mitcham are improving and we have a couple of outstanding schools now, which make also impact things if they keep their rating over the next inspection cycle as well?

It's really frustrating because the area around the Cricket Green conservation area is great - theres a lovely cafe and playground at Canons House, a great primary school nearby, the cricket green itself is trying to get permission to build a new clubhouse. If they could do something about the road and the eyesore of the Burn Bullock pub, it could be really very nice! But i don't hold out much hope in the short term.

Actually I should edit that previous comment to say "we thought our part of mitcham was starting to gentrify". Even back then, it wasn't the case everywhere.

If you took away our loft conversion, our house is smaller in footprint (just) than the second one you linked. We managed fine when it was just me and DH, and it was OK when we had 1 DC. It was really in preparation for a second DC that we did the loft - we have family to stay a lot and with turning what was the spare room into a bedroom for DD1, it was uncomfortable with guests and all the baby paraphernalia. My DM & DF ended up staying in hotels a few times. Doing the loft basically gave us breathing space to stay in the house once DD2 was born and still have space when family come. See what you think when you view but it might depend on your life stage and whether there is the potential / desire for DC before you would contemplate a move again.

I know these areas well, not long ago I commuted through Mitcham (near the common) as a teacher, and before that through South Norwood (high street). Before committing to one of them, I would definitely go and walk around after dark. Sounds ridiculous - and perhaps I am sensitive, but I have felt vulnerable on bus routes (and walking) through SN (especially after school finishes and into the evening), as well as Mitcham. Tooting, has always felt busy, vibey and safe but up by the overground it does have a different, slightly quieter feeling, maybe it's just me. I don't know if you're male or female, and it should make zero difference, but I have definitely felt vulnerable as a 35 year old female.

We felt like Mitcham was starting to gentrify a bit in 2019 (spillover from CW and Tooting) and basically covid stopped it.

I think hybrid working has slowed or moved a lot of gentrification. Also high costs of buying & moving. Quite a few of my younger colleagues have skipped the flat stage in z2 or 3 and gone straight for a house in z4/5

The only thing I'd add is that I don't really agree that Tooting has better transport options. It's got the tube but the Northern Line is awfully slow from there into town. Better to be on a train line, which is more of a pleasant journey in my experience. Norwood Junction has loads of trains to Victoria, London Bridge, Clapham Junction. You can change for the underground or overground as well as quickly get to Gatwick. It's so well connected.

I think that house is plenty big enough. It's a very standard footprint - there are thousands of them all over the country with exactly that layout. I live in one and my grandparents lived in one with an identical layout. Easy to extend upwards and very solidly built.

if crossrail 2 ever happens I think Tooting is on the map.

Used to live nearby Tooting - it's still up and coming. Colliers Wood station is a good option as you'll get a seat in the mornings on the tube given its positioning on the Northern line. Close by isMerton Abbey where there are nice walks through to Morden Park. Great restaurants and pubs in Tooting especially in the market at night. Mitchum town centre is best avoided however. If there are tube issues it's v easy to get to Wimbledon for the district line or Earlsfield for the main line (15 mins to Waterloo)