Buying house no building regs

[LSmith789]

Hi, so I’m buying a house, had survey done, want to complete before end March. My solicitor has told me they have no building regs for:

1. removal of a wall
2. chimney breast

Solicitor has asked that the Vendors get either Retrospective Building Regs Certificate OR A Certificate of Adequacy from a structural engineer. Vendors have refused. Solicitor has advised me to proceed with caution. WWYD?

Are you buying with a mortgage @LSmith789 ? Because your mortgage lender will be making the decision on whether they'll lend on this.

And also I know these things were done before the current owners bought. So it’s likely that regulations were different then, but I don’t know where to go to check this.

Whether Bldg Regs was required at the time of the work is a different question to whether it is safe.
Is it safe?
Will your lender proceed?
Will you be able to re-sell?

Finding out whether a certificate was needed is a bit irrelevant.

Thanks Whentheycomeforyou.

Celia - no not buying with mortgage.

If you're not buying with a mortgage you need to find out whether it is safe.
But bear in mind selling it on may be difficult as most buyers will be using a mortgage.

It's not your responsibility to prove that it's unsafe, it's their responsibility to prove that it IS safe. That's why things like building regs certificates exist, so that they can prove safety.
They are not providing you with any evidence of safety and therefore, you are in the default position of "not safe", and you should proceed on that basis.

Celia - thanks, yes I know what you mean, I just thought that if the cert wasn’t needed then that is an explanation as to why they don’t have it. Rather than the work was done recklessly by a cowboy.

The chimney will be safe. Using a wooden beam sat on the ceiling joists was the norm. People could argue installing a steel is overkill. If you don’t need the chimney and it’s not shared, I’d favour removing the whole thing.
The downstairs worst scenario is it is a wooden beam. That’s very unlikely. It’s more likely to be a reinforced concrete beam, a U beam or even a suitable RSJ.
If it’s the perfect house for you, and let’s face it there is a huge amount of shite for sale all with their own foibles, I’d try and get a couple of £k off for the chimney and continue.

Thanks hellsbells yes it is a shared chimney. I do want to try and do what I can to proceed with this.
I think i’ll get a quote for the rsj for the chimney and see if Vendor will allow a structural engineer to visit (I think i’ll speak to structural engineer and see how invasive they need to be on the decor).

Pre 1999 as in 26 years ago....no I wouldn't expect them to come up with evidence. And no it wouldn't put me off assuming no cracks visible anywhere? To get retrospective approval officially from BR is a bit of a pain and could cost couple thousand by the time you pay for the application and then arrange opening up works and inspection and then making good.

They drill holes and insert a camera. They need to ascertain what the beam is and if there are suitable padstones. If the walls are papered on both sides, the vendor won’t like it. That said, the question needs to be answered I guess.
For the chimney, is a gallows bracket unsuitable?

If it's the house you really want, I'd go ahead. A few posters have explained about work done so many years ago that buildings regs didn't apply, or if they did were not applied for. It's very common and thousands of homes sold every year don't have current building regs. In fact that would be every house we've ever sold.

The work you've outlined sounds easily fixed, if deemed necessary. But make sure to get Building Regs signed off for any new work you have done so you don't have the same issue to worry over-cautious first time buyers when you eventually come to sell.

Building regulations and standards for chimneys - BFCMA (British Flue and Chimney Manufacturer's Association)

Thanks again all.

Calamity - what were you asked for when selling if no building regs?

An Indemnity Policy. They're not that expensive and seem to satisfy both sellers and buyers. And when I've bought without building regs my solicitor requested the sellers put one in place, and they were happy to oblige.

I've never heard of one being claimed on though, it just seems to be a necessary reassurance.

Thanks Calamity - but that does not i sure against the cost of unsafe structure and remedy of same.

HellsBells - not sure about whether gallows bracket will work. Not sure whether enough room to bedroom below.

That’s pretty much irrelevant really. As I said before it’s not about having the building control sign off as such, it’s about making sure the work is safe, structurally sound and it’s not going to collapse.

Your chimney support by wood for example. That probably met the rules when it was done. However a friend of mine bought a house like that, and their mortgage company wasn’t happy about it, and wouldn’t release the funds until it had been replaced by a rsj.

That only indemnifies you against any enforcement action by the council for not getting it signed off by building control. It doesn’t indemnify you against the house collapsing if the work wasn’t done properly.

Thanks Doris i can’t see your original post though.

Yes, that's true, but I was assuming the OP would do the necessary remedial work - RSJ for the chimney breast, and for the missing internal wall if required.

The internal wall that was removed might not have been load-bearing, so it's possible it didn't need an RSJ.

Some internal walls don't need a supporting RSJ if they're not load-bearing - you can usually tell if they're load-bearing by the way the joists run, which is normally at right angles to the direction of the floorboards.

If the removal was done as long ago as you say and nothings falling down and there are no cracks then it’s really not a huge issue.
( Im guessing it was done after the huge upgrade in 1984 of building regs requirements and anyway regs for structural elements have always been a requirement. )

If you are trying to beat the stamp duty hike in April then I wouldn’t delay the process.
Its worth noting just because a beam/ support is timber doesn’t mean that it isn’t satisfactory. Many houses are built in timber and there’s no reason to automatically assume it has to be replaced in steel as your surveyor has suggested.

If this was me buying, I’d buy.
Then I’d sort it out later myself.
Id get an structural engineer ( not builder or surveyor ) to calc the beam depth if it’s holding up a full storey. If it’s just holding up a chimney Brest and chimney you can get beam depth charts from suppliers.

Our house is Edwardian and every original supporting beam is wood - huge, but wood. Newer work has RSJs. There is nothing to compel a homeowner to update building work to the standards of today if it was compliant when the work was carried out.

I don’t see how they can get a building regulations certificate if the work was done so long ago. And there’s no point either. It’s well past the time for LA enforcement.

It’s been standing this long. Unless you can see cracks or sagging it’s probably OK. But get proper advice from a structural surveyor to be sure.

If you know when the works were done, it'll be easy to find out, there were new Regs in 2010. I think the previous ones were 2006.

I'd be speaking to a structural engineer rather than a surveyor if that is who is currently advising you.