Subsidence or lintel failure - house purchase

[Cherryblossom1723]

We are looking at buying a 1920's property.
It's been sat empty since May 2022 and has been on the Market since December 2023. As it needs quite a bit of work doing it fits our budget. Usually we would have no chance with a property of this size.
After having another property purchase fall through we decided to look at this one.
It has so much potential and once done up could be amazing for our family, but we have a few niggles that we are unsure on.

We had a level 3 home buyers report done, which advised a structural engineer. Which we have done, but it's not really answered any questions.

The survey picked up a crack under 5mm (although I can presume only just under 5mm)
Under thYe bedroom window. The crack is also on the outside of the house.
The survey mentioned this is possibly due to lintel failure as this type of property doesn't have a lintel.
The structural engineer is undecided, he said he can't say either way if the house is or isn't effected by subsidence. He said usually he can say whether properties definitely are or not but this one has left him uncertain.

We are so unsure whether to go for the house now. We love it but we are also concerned if there is subsidence it may end up costing us a lot of money.

There is a large tree at the end of the drive, maybe 10metres away. The house survey puts it as not in close proximity though. The structural engineer has said to maybe check the drains for cracks but after doing two surveys already we're running out of funds until our sale goes through and we get the equity to use.

Could anyone give us any opinions on the cracks. Would you go for a property like this?

Thank you so much if you read this far.

It can’t b lintel failure if it doesn’t have any lintels. I had a house without lintels in some windows and it was fairly easy to put them in.

How frustrating

I would not have paid him!

I can see why they aren't sure. You have a few options.

Buy knowing it is a risk, but put enough aside for remedial work. You will need a proper quote for this up front.

Buy, but negotiate the said "proper quote" off the current agreement. Stating that now you have had a survey there is uncertainty around the property.

Pull out and wait for the right property to come along.

I would be wary about subsidence... it can impact any mortgage and any potential resale.

A second opinion might not hurt if you really want to press ahead. But Personally, I would look elsewhere.

You’ve got a structural engineer saying hmmm not sure and a crack above a window. It’s also been on the market for two years and is going cheap because presumably many others have walked away? Everything is worth it for the right money, but if it really is the right house then I’d be wanting a large discount on the purchase. If you have to get a lintel in there only then it’s not a biggy, and if you haven’t got one there already it might be a failing soldier course. If the house is subsiding / needs underpinning then the costs / hassle are going to rack up fast. If it were me then for the right price I’d go ahead but I’d be wanting an absolute bargain and then I’d want a solid home insurance policy!

@Cherryblossom1723 can you just explain that external picture? You say ‘under the bedroom window’ but that seems to be a ground floor picture.
A tree 20m away is no issue, but what’s all the vegetation we see in the reflection?
That wall looks thin, is it a solid wall/no cavity?
Is all the plumbing surface mounted like that? What’s the EPC?

That's what I thought it really confused me.
It's definitely what she put though

Yes it's the front upstairs window. There is a large tree about 10metres infront of the house that's very tall. We could be taking that one out, plus other bushes etc. Then there is other trees across the road that are rather tall.
Solid brick walls, with render on the front of the house. No cavity.
EPC currently a D

The picture attached is from Google maps and shows the tree mentioned.

It also had a loft dormer added to the rear of the house 8 years ago

If it was subsidence, wouldn't there be evidence in other places too, not just one crack under one window?
Also, have you actually been advised that the trees are causing issues or just decided for yourselves, or will they be removed for aesthetic reasons?

Yes he said he can't usually say definitely yes or no but this one has left him unsure, which isn't very helpful really.

It went on the Market last December, once probate had been sorted. It's been on a year.

We did ask the estate agents why it hasn't sold yet and there response was general feedback has been due to the amount of modernising the house needs. It is a project and it's over the budget that most people are looking for in the area.
Popular houses here are 3 bedroom semis for around £220-£250,000 this is a 5 bedroom house that needs all the rooms decorating etc.

More of a project than we was initially looking for but with all the space we really need.

We have already offered £20,000 below asking price so im not sure he would take any less. It's a probate property being sold by a distant relative that is making nothing from the property. It's already being sold a good amount under its done up value.

Such a huge difficult decision. I appreciate your points. Thank you very much

We have been told the tree might be the issue... it also might not be, so were really unsure

That tree is not an issue. I’d be more worried about buying a solid wall house house, the heating costs will be crazy. That radiator looks old, and surface mount plumbing is usually a bad sign.
Just how much work needs doing (excluding anything structural that may crop up)? And how much cheaper is this house compared to, well anything comparable?

But is there any evidence of subsidence elsewhere?
I live in a house that has got subsidence on an internal wall (😫) and there are identical diagonal cracks above all of door frames on all floors that are in that wall.
I'm not suggesting that you should be able to identify structural problems when a structural engineer is not sure, btw!!

There is some other minor cracks in other areas of the house but they were very small and the report came back as fill and monitor for them.
The report only put a ? On the front upstairs window crack.

Yes the radiators are old and would all need replacing.
We are in a solid wall house now so that was something we had considered.
I hadn't looked at the surface mount plumbing though. That's something I will research as I no nothing about it.

Gosh it's such a hard decision

2 other houses on the same street have sold in the last year for £360,000 smaller house/less bedrooms but they had already been modernised. This one is £310,000
The garden on one is the same size as the one we're looking at, the other is bigger.

My previous home similar age developed a similar crack above the front door. This was down to no real lintel and increased heavy traffic and delivery Lorrie’s trundling past. The house was built at a time traffic was far lower and no problems till Tesco opened a major supermarket up the road.
It was resolved by employing a specialist to check and then insert a supportive metal lintel when we had the porch dismantled and replaced. Took a week to do and once in place and finished it did spoil the aesthetic look of tthe house. It might be worth finding quotes for such and seeing if that sort of work would be in your budget or if you could negotiate an offer based on remedial work.

Is there buildings insurance in place ? When we bought in an area known for subsidence we were advised to stay with the existing insurers.
We had work done for subsidence and apart from a reasonable excess the cost was meet by insurance.
It looks like a lovely house , in your shoes I'd go ahead.
Ps are there any other similar houses in the vicinity that might give clues?
Tho I guess you'd have to knock and ask 🫤

Surface mount is just a bit unsightly and gathers dust. But it’s an indication that at the time of installation the owner was not willing to pay to have it ran under the floors.
Probate houses often have not had anything spent on them in 30 years. That’s 30 years of spend you need to cough up. Kitchen, boiler, bathrooms, rewire, flooring, decorating, radiators.
You need to be realistic with the time and costs involved. It could be a great deal, or it might not.

Yes it definitely needs a new kitchen putting in. It will need a bathroom but that can wait. We have roughly £40,000 left that we can do work on to begin with and have then the rest will be a project over the next 5-10 years. Definitely needs decorating throughout.

It has had a new boiler though (last 5 years) and it has been regularly serviced and the fuse box is new but not sure on electrics.

I'd run for the hills
Sorry op

Isn't it saying that cracks appeared. 'Hardwood frames are weight beariing but UPVC ones are not' ....... and that is what is now in - so you have lost the weight bearing ability which has resulted in cracks. what make of window are they, any planning application diagrams?

Maybe also extreme dry summer or similar extreme weather conditions recently - you could look round the estate and see what the other houses are like, Are you on clay soil. Often cracks appear with clay soil and not helped by big trees.

I think if you go in with your eyes open, which it sounds like you are doing as you are aware the whole house needs modernising, not just a bit of redecorating, then it could be fabulous.

The extract from the report that you posted earlier states that the windows do not have lintels, (but then also says there is lintel failure?) and suggests that the crack is due to a UPVC window frame not having sufficient load bearing capacity. I would say from the fact that the crack is near the middle of the window and not from the corner, that it is more likely to be a local problem with the window and not a subsidence issue.

As I said earlier, my house has subsidence and the cracks are all diagonal from the corners of door frames. But, I am not a structural engineer!

I don't think you will find a 100+ year old property that doesn't have a few cracks and saggy bits. You just need to be handy with the polyfilla every so often.

I amend my ‘surface mount’ comment. I see the pipe does go under the floor in the bottom left of the photo.

I wouldn't panic, OP. Houses with subsidence have many big, thick diagonal cracks, and an essential feature of the cracks is that some of them travel down to ground level, because the movement is originating below ground. I wouldn't be worried about one crack in between the ground and first floor windows. My guess would be that the original timber windows performed a supporting role, and that when the replacement UPVC windows were installed, the installer didn't adequately support the wall above in between taking the old windows out and putting the new windows in, resulting in the crack. This is fairly common. I would point up the crack and see if it opens up again. Other minor cracks are likely to be non-structural thermal cracks which can be filled with caulking when you decorate.

The tree photo shows that the house looks to be a substantial, well-constructed property, over 100 years old. It is very unlikely that this one crack happens to be the beginnings of subsidence, just when you are buying it. Any subsidence claims of nearby properties should show up in searches. The searches should also state the soil type. If it isn't clay or silt, or mining ground, there would be nothing to worry about anyway.

Also, in terms of heating costs, houses with substantial solid walls like this one benefit from their thermal mass - it's not like a flimsy built concrete house with heat loss and insulation problems.