Negotiating price post survey

[HipHipWhoRay]

hello, am after some advice following a survey. We’re now in a protracted house purchase as sadly owner recently died during the sale and is now in probate. It has been a family home for several decades and is clearly a do-er upper. It was priced fairly and went to best and final, and we offered over asking to take it off market.

We’ve given family breathing space as must be very difficult time for them, but is also not easy for us as we will probably have to go into expensive rental short term etc as the sale on our place is close to exchange etc. This isn’t the house sellers issue, but for context with my stress levels.

so my questions: We have had a level 3 survey on the purchase which picked up a crack in the chimney stack meaning not weather proof
and potential risk in storm (est £4k).

we also had electrics inspected and told look like done in 60s, needs full rewire and new consumer units etc.

we have asked via solicitors twice for installation/inspection certificates for both electrics and gas, and they’ve said they’ve chased it a couple of times but no response. We’ve obviously not pushed it urgently as am sure family dealing with funeral and trying to sort paperwork, and we’re all awaiting probate to be issued anyway.

however, based on what our electrician said (and also looking at age of ancient boiler) is likely no certificates for either installation will be found. Maybe they will have an annual service certificate for gas.

We were aware it was a do-er upper, and so anticipated these would need updating but If they can’t produce safety/installation certs, is it reasonable for us to knock these off the price (as well as chimney stack repairs), on basis the work needs doing urgently?

would it impact us getting insurance if they can’t get the certification?

as I mentioned, we did offer over asking, but cost of a 4 bed rewire, new boiler and chimney stack repair, could easily be 20k.

Any advice- we don’t want to be arseholes, we’ve both lost parents recently so know the stress, but equally if it needs an urgent rewire and boiler and there could be household insurance issues with it how do we proceed?

As someone who has sold a similar house in similar circumstances, I think you should have priced in a boiler and a rewire given that it’s a probate sale that requires renovation. (And presumably you could have seen the boiler - and maybe the consumer unit? - at viewing).

But I would come back on the chimney stack repairs as that doesn’t feel like something it would have been reasonable for you to have picked up ahead of offer.

I think as it was clearly a doer upper, it was almost inevitable when you agreed a price that the house would need rewiring, new consumer unit etc. This work will come with a new electrical certificate. So I wouldn't be expecting to take money off the agreed price for this.

I would be asking for a boiler certificate though - if they don't have one they can easily get the boiler serviced now to get one. If it emerges that the house needs a new boiler urgently I would be expecting them to install one ahead of exchange of contracts as you don't want to move into a house with a broken boiler.

I would also be getting a quote for the chimney stack work and expecting them to pay for the repair or at the least contribute towards the cost.

If it’s a doer upper you would have known the wiring and plumbing is old. So no you can’t get a reduction for those. The chimney stack though yes, and it’s kind of normal to go halves.

However, and this is a big however, until you’ve exchanged in the England/wales you can negotiate what ever you think. You may find the new “owners” want to keep the house, or they want to do it up to sell or they are desperate for the sale to go through and get closure. If you went over the asking price I assume it’s a fair price. Hopefully they are keen to sell and get the money themselves in which case you could go for the full £4k. But if it’s going to cost you £10k in rent I’d probably just ask to exchange and complete asap and forget about the chimney.

We re- negotiated our purchase years ago when the survey came back with a lower value then the one we’d agreed. The lower value affected our loan to value rate on the mortgage and we would had to have gone back to the mortgage company. Luckily the vendor was keen to sell.

I think you would be taking the piss about the boiler and rewire that would have been obvious from the start buying a do-er upper.

Something more structural like the chimney I think is reasonable to negotiate on.

How long ago was your offer accepted? When did the owner die?

I think if you can line up your sale and not have to go into rented and the cost of moving twice you’re better off accepting the faults (which aren’t new information) and get the sale moving.

I wouldn’t expect them to put in a new boiler plus it may not be what you’d ultimately want. They will put in the cheapest they can while you may want something different. If the boilers broken you can put in a new one.

As previous, the wiring and boiler come up as standard doer upper.

Get a quote for the chimney asap and as much detail as you can on the problem with it ie is it already leaking into the property. It’s not unreasonable to ask for money off for this but if it’s severe the vendors might want to take action to stop it damaging the property.

As you know, probate can take quite some time to come through and presumably the house is now sitting empty heading into the winter months. Any damage with the house not being weather tight could be much worse three or four months down the line resulting in higher costs for you to repair it or an even longer spell in rental.

I can’t imagine many vendors paying for a whole new boiler system before exchange!

People really shouldn’t buy a do-er upper if they don’t realise that living in it initially is going to be quite a back to basics experience!

You can negotiate whatever you like but it might not be accepted by the other side. I agree id probably expect to pay for new wiring for a do-er upper.

I'm not clear on the timings though. If they are still at funeral stage, I'd be surprised if they have even submitted the forms for probate yet. The whole process takes months and months. You might want to plan for an extended stay in your rental.

Lastly I know you are being respectful but you will have to chase the other side for the information and to keep the process moving at some stage. However it sounds like they are not going to have some answers for you (this must be common for probate sales if the deceased person didn't keep organised paperwork ). I'd think about which things are deal breakers and which you will have to get over.

I'm only suggesting that if the boiler is not working.

I can't imagine many buyers would be happy to move into a house (especially in winter) with no heating or hot water.

If the boiler is working but very old then I would accept that as would be as expected in a doer upper.

If I were buying the house that needed a reno and the boiler didn’t work I wouldn’t want the vendors to do the work. As they buyer you would have no control over what sort of system was put it, where it was located etc. We bought a renovation project and the boiler was actually only a few years old but we had to replace it within a year as it wasn’t suitable at all, couldn’t cope with what a bigger family needed and we needed to house it elsewhere.

I think you can ask for half the chimney work. Everything else you should have known pre survey.

What exactly is wrong with the chimney? Or do you just plan to remove it?

If it went to best and final offer they may well go back to the other interested parties. I think you are taking the mick to be honest.

Thanks for all your advice, just needed a sense check. We intended to do all the works inc new boiler/wiring but I should have left the boiler part out of OP. What I was trying to work out was what happens if they don’t have the certs and if it impacts us getting house insured in the meantime. I guess our solicitors can advise on that.

Chimney brickwork has a large crack in it, and survey says means not water tight, and could possible topple.

To answer a previous question, it wasn’t a probate sale when we had offer accepted and paid for survey, we were dealing with owner (via Esrate agent). It’s now probate and so the ‘extra costs’ which have fallen to us were not factored in to offer, but I appreciate that doesn’t change the value of the property. I suppose my thoughts were just a bit of ‘we offered over when owner alive, now we’re facing increased costs, is it reasonable to ask for a bit off’.

Anyhow, thanks for advice, we’ll probably ask for quotes for the chimney repair and go halves or something on that.

however, based on what our electrician said (and also looking at age of ancient boiler) is likely no certificates for either installation will be found. Maybe they will have an annual service certificate for gas.

im not sure what you mean by this- home owners are under no obligation to retain or hand over installation certificates for electric or gas, or have an annual boiler service.

Not having these might cause some buyers anxiety, but that generally means their only option is to pull out of the purchase and find another house where the vendors have this paperwork.

you can buy indemnity insurance for some certification- recently installed windows for example, where the FENSA cert is unavailable- but not old wiring!

if I were selling I wouldn’t give you any money off as I could just wait for a buyer who wouldn’t ask for such things, but it’s worth a go, they might be desperate to sell

the old wiring and boiler won’t impact your house insurance

Still better to replace it after a year than have to move the family in with no heating or hot water - if indeed the boiler is even broken.

Thank you- because solicitors always ask for installation and service certificates I had it mind that it was important to the sales to demonstrate the new owners weren’t going to electrocute themselves on day 1. Good to hear it’s not mandatory nor impact insurance.

House owners are not legally required to have gas or electric certificates so it shouldn't be a problem for your house insurance/mortgage provider. It's in the nice to have box but certainly not essential. Same as window certificates imo.

My house was built in the 60s and has its original wiring and there have been zero problems. If I was replastering then I would do a rewire of that room now but I'm not freaking out about it.

The chimney problem is valid though and I would ask them to either repair it, or you get a quote and ask for that to be knocked off the sale price.

if the chimney crack is visible then I think that’s hard to them ask for a discount. My parents have done multiple houses up over the years, all bought from elderly people. They’ve had new heating systems and rewiring done in each. To me that’s expected to be honest. Even if the electrics were done in 1960s, if the family moved in in the 70s and the electrics worked, they’d have no reason to rewire the place. So it’s only when a new owner comes along, that it tends to be done.

I’ll also add, every survey I’ve ever had suggests electrics are re done… this was for a 10 yo house and a 4yo house. The 4yo house we’re in now (8 years later) has terrible electrics and today I’ll be fixing a socket that’s sparking when used 🙄

Ours was probate we didn’t have a survey done at all and family didn’t have any certificates. Didn’t affect sale or insurance.

I agree. Re-wire, boiler etc is on you.

When you renegotiate it's generally to go halves. I agree with PP the rewire is part of the updating but you might have a point with the crack, but at most expect half of the cost. As probate this will likely delay things though if several people need to be consulted.