Vendors solicitor bullying tactics

[Gamergirl86]

MNers some advice needed and a bit of a rant if im honest.

We've been trying to purchase a house, asking price offer accepted at the stsrt of June.
Took 10 weeks for the vendor to start paperwork with their solicitor so very delayed from the outset. They stated they were waiting for confirmation of our mortgage agreement (already in place three weeks after offer.)

Was hoping to exchange three weeks ago but a senior solicitor at the firm we engaged brought up a last minute query re the sewerage/drainage.
Vendor has not paid or been billed sewerage for ten years. Searches concluded no one (water board, vendor, council ) did not know, could not prove where the sewerage was going.

Our lender requires this information to continue. A survey has been booked (paid for by us) but vendor is refusing entry on advice from their solicitor.

Vendors solicitor sent an email last week claiming that we paid under market value and if we didn't exchange in the next week they'd put the house back on the market. Tone was horrible. Basically threatening the sale.

Email again today acusing us of registering DC at the local school using vendors address: not true.

Also claimed the vendor agreed an offer under the asking price because we were cash buyers: also not true

The solicitor also went on to say reiterate the drainage isn't the vendors issue and they won't engage in further negotiations until we exchange.

We can't move forward. I've been pushing for this sale since July. On the phone to EA and our solicitor three times a week.

The house is the only one in the village which has come on the market in the last two years. Nothing else in our price bracket or within five miles.

It very much feels the vendor's solicitor is actively working against the sale.

He advised the vendor not to submit any paperwork regarding a garage which was built three years ago but has no planning. Blankly refused to get indemnity- which we ended up paying for (or will upon completion). We also paid for a boiler service, another requirement of our lender which the solicitor advised the vendor not to do.

I'm absolutely devastated that this sale is falling apart. The EA talk to the vendor and then the solicitor changes their mind every time we get one step forward.

Sorry for such a long post.... it's been a really long 6 months.

Any advice welcome. Thanks.

No advice I'm afraid, just wanted to say that it all sounds very frustrating and I hope someone will be along with some advice soon 💐 does the vendor want to sell? Won't they have the same problem with any other buyers should your sale fall through?

@RugbyGirl1 vendor does not seem to be aware of how the solicitor is proceeding- aparent they really want a family (us) to buy the property. Had two very pleasant viewings of over an hour as the vendor made us tea and biscuits.

The house was on for 525 in 2022, 515 in 2023 and we made an offer at asking 495 this year. They definitely want to sell! I have a feeling thr drainage issue hampered other offers before but vendor doesn't want to dela with it or doesn't feel its important. They brought at auction so it never came up.

They are being completely unreasonable, can't believe they are being difficult about the price (amongst other things) when you offered the asking price, albeit they had reduced it a couple of times.

What is their problem? They sound poisonous. I can't believe it's all their solicitor's fault, more like they are winding the solicitor up to behave so aggressively. The boiler is a bit of a grey issue but most sellers would just get it serviced to keep their buyers sweet. However it's a shame your solicitor insisted on such a minor point as maybe it helped to deplete the goodwill you had at the beginning of the process.

I would get the EA involved if you haven't already and get them to ask the vendors do they want to move or don't they? Because their solicitor is endangering the sale. This is where a good EA earns their commission.

You have two issues, not one.

You need to sort out what is going on with sewerage. It sounds very dodgy, if they are refusing to address the problem that’s usually because it is going to be very expensive/ legally complex. If the vendor won’t allow access for your surveyor, the deal is off, anyway.

If your problem is only with the solicitor, you could contact the vendor directly and see if you can get things moving. Really though, I feel the vendor is not the woolly baa lamb that they have impersonated, and their solicitor is acting on instructions. Building a garage without planning is dodgy to say the least.

it’s frustrating, but not as bad as finding yourself in proud possession of a can of worms.

I think I responded to you on the buying and selling thread! We had a similar issue (also from July!) but ours was that our sewage was on a lease and our lender wouldn’t lend unless it was an easement in perpetuity. In their words a house with no sewage is not a house!

So I really doubt they’re going to be able to sell to anyone other than a cash buyer (and I would wager the majority of those would still want to know where the sewage is going unless they’re a house buying company that offer a lot less). I think you do have the upper hand here and should call their bluff. We were lucky our sellers have worked hard with us to resolve the issue but if they hadn’t then we’d have had no choice but pull out.

I totally get how hard it is when you have your heart set on a place. I’ve been a nervous wreck for about 8 months now!

@Gamergirl86 Are these emails to you directly, or via your solicitor? The should only be to your solicitor. If so what is the response/advice from your solicitor?

Have you tried contacting the vendors directly? Your post makes it sound as though they are not aware of what their solicitor is saying - that seems unlikely as the vendors will instruct their solictor but worth checking just in case they are not aware.

You cannot buy this house without clarity on the sewerage concerns. I know you have your heart set on the house, and gave comitted money to the process, but it could prove to be a very expensive oversight to ignore the drains.
I'd go back with an ultimatum yourself: sewer survey to be carried out, vexatious complaints about schools etc to stop, or you will withdraw.
OR, possibly, you will proceed at 400k, and take on the sewers. But I think you need to withdraw.

This is all coming from the vendor, the solicitor would not be coming up with this stuff themselves.
There's nothing you can do really, other than make it clear that you cannot proceed unless this is sorted. Put it in writing to the estate agents just so that they are 100% clear.
If you can't get the paperwork required by the lender, then you can't go ahead. And don't assume you can just get indemnity insurance for building work that was carried out less than 4 years ago. The council can ask you to take it down if it's in breach of PP if the 4 years hasn't elapsed, and the indemnity insurance will not cover you for everything. Be very careful.

Thank you all fpr responding.
The vendor is elderly but certainly came.across as competent on our two viewings.

We are looking at rightmove just in case but feel.as.if we might have to walk away.
Our solicitor has emailed vendors solicitor saying exactly that @Botanicalblonde if they put back on the market the issue will still be an issue and needing to be dealt with. No one will buy it without a drain survey. And it's unlikely they'll get a cash buyer over £500k.

The smart thing would be to walk away. We will take your advice @DelphiniumBlue and put our requirements in writing, gove them two weeks to respond and then move on.

As you say earlier, you can't proceed anyway as your lender needs the drainage issue sorting.
So it's out of your hands in a way and the decision has already been made that you can't possibly continue with the sale in these circumstances.

How very strange the situation is - that solicitor sounds unhinged and totally unprofessional.

I hope you can find somewhere else quickly.

@Gamergirl86 I am sure you have already asked and have an answer to the question but the property is on mains sewage? Is there any chance it isn't?

I think you need to take a deep breath and step backwards. Do you want to purchase this house over any other you have seen - if the answer is yes then how can you proceed. If the answer is yes, then I would ask your solicitor to write a blunt but very nice letter advising you still wish to proceed at the agreed price but in order to do so and most importantly satisfy the mortgage company, the drainage needs to be checked. I would also say, of course if they wish to withdraw from the sale, would they advise you now. (Hopefully saying it that way rather than remarket puts the onus on them to decide to not sell to you - it is easier to remarket and keep the current buyer dangling).

I know you sort of have already done that but if you wish to buy, do not give up hope just adopt the MP mantra - repeat the same thing over and over again! Good luck

I used to work for a water company doing mains sewers inspections. If the sewerage is connected to mains sewerage then there is still a part of the pipe work that is the owner’s liability - any pipe work that is on their land and has only their sewerage in it. If it has someone else’s sewerage in it but not yours and is on your land, it’s the water company’s responsibility. If it has one of more person’s sewerage in it, regardless of whose land it is on, it’s the water company’s liability. In most houses, the owners will only be liable for the small pipework taking their sewerage to the existing network and the water company for the rest of it. So his only reason for not claiming to be his problem is so he doesn’t get a bill but I think there’s no way of avoiding that. It’s usually only if you are the first house on the line that the pipework is solely yours. If it is not mains connected, then liability is solely the owners and they need to ensure they know where it is draining. There are strict regulations around septic tanks, so it absolutely is the vendor’s issue. If the drainage issue is not the vendor’s issue, as the solicitor argues, that would suggest water company own it (as they do with most of the network) so why does he have a problem with a survey you are paying for? If it is not a water company asset and is therefore very much the vendor’s issue. Private sewers legislation came into effect in 2011 and so any solicitor should be more than aware of its existence.

You may be able to pay (it used to be about £300) for a water company to search the neighbouring properties for their assets. although I get you’ve already sunk so much into this that it might not be wise. If the neighbouring properties are water company owned, this property will be too.

Firstly, ring your solicitor and ask what you legally need to know - cash buyer or mortgage buyer. Which of those is the vendors solicitor saying no to and can your solicitors take any action against that solicitors for failing in their duty if they are refusing to do something they legally have to.

If you don’t think the vendor is aware of what the solicitor is doing, contact the estate agent. Be very blunt. The vendors solicitor is deliberately preventing you from getting the paperwork you need to complete (and for them to get their commission). You will not move forward with the purchase without the planning permission or drainage survey. You have incurred enough costs and you will not incurring more. They have two weeks to do this or you pull out (you need to stick to your guns on this one once you say it). Remind the estate agent that they will be very unlikely to sell this house without these pieces of paperwork and it’s just sat on their books, making no money for them. If you can find out the branch manager’s name, have a conversation with them. Call them first and follow up with an email confirming everything you said in the call, you can draft the email first and work through the bullet points of your email.

@schloss not connected to mains sewage or at least none of the four water providers innour area have records of the house being connected.

Concerns are that it's either connected but not being billed ie owner will be liable for 6 years back pay or illegally connected to a neighbouring cesspit.

We really really want the house, and that's the rub! We're willing to put up with a lot but really feel like we're being a bit bullied now.

@TipsySquirrel that's incredibly helpful, thank you.

It sounds to me as if they always knew this would be an issue but were hoping you wouldn’t notice (which you nearly didn’t). It’s actually quite useful that your lender won’t lend without these details as it saves you from succumbing to the bullying. Putting everything in writing and allowing them two weeks sounds great, and regains you a bit of power in the equation.

There are always solutions to most issues with house buying and selling, sadly the process is normally infuriating on the way!

It maybe an historical connection which is not registered, or got lost - I have seen it happen before.

You say about illegally connecting to a neighbours sewage, is that an idea or from something which has been said? Is there a chance you can speak to the neighbour to see if they are aware of any sharing of sewage?

Sorry one final question, what did the surveyor ask for, or did it come via the searches, for there to be info no sewage bills had been paid?

@schloss it was picked up by a senior solicitor at the firm we're using (our newly qualified solicitor sadly didn't recognise it for thr issue it was at first) from the searches.

So from the vendors pov I do understand the frustration that it seems to be an eleventh hour query.

All we requested was a water bill to prove they were paying for sewerage but they've now had three weeks and nothing. vendors solicitor says they wont be providing any more documentation. They clearly know there's an issue and don't want to deal.with it.

As a note, I should have said, the house is c. 1700s.

Thanks @Gamergirl86 - I think the key to this is the age of the house. It is not unknown for there to be odd sewage arrangements! Not saying there isn't anything wrong, your solicitor and mortgage company quite rightly need confirmation of the sewage setup, but I do wonder if the vendor does not have anything to show or prove what is going on. Of course the 2 errors are the vendors solicitors actions and the vendors not allowing a drainage survey. Of course they could be worried about the changing regulations in relation to non-mains sewage when selling houses (it can be annoying for older, in particular rural properties).

Just to give you an example, our house is not on mains water or sewage - we remortaged and the solicitors could not accept we were unable to provide water or sewage bills - we could not produce something we didn't have. What saved us was some historical documents showing we have rights to port water and copies on invoices for installation of our sceptic tank. Even producing the invoices for emptying of the sceptic tank periodically were not acceptable. It did not make sense sometimes.

As the house is old, you may be able to do some research into historical land documents which an outside chance may show some sewage.

Don't give up hope yet, you have everything to gain if it can be sorted. Sometimes letting the situation calm down can help - their solicitor has pressed the nuclear option with the threats, you have not done as they wish so the ball is back in their court as to if they pull out.

Can you remember seeing any manhole covers anywhere within the buildings grounds?

It would be illogical of them really to pull out @Gamergirl86 because the problem won’t disappear with a new buyer. As I hope the EA is reminding them.

Honestly things happen for a reason and this isn’t meant to be.

You have a vendor who:

• Is refusing to allow entry or documents regarding sewage,
• has a garage without planning permission which is highly possible you could be told to pull down.
• has accused you of fraud re giving the address for school applications.
• And these are the issues you know about. What are you going to find when you move in and you no longer have any recourse.
• Only a fool would proceed with this.

@Gamergirl86 i’d imagine that the house is connected to a cesspit which the vendor absolutely does know but doesn’t want to address or pay for. Unfortunately that does mean that the house sale is unlikely to proceed with any buyer unless it goes to auction where the fact will be buried in the paperwork added at the last minute….or it is a cash purchase. It strikes me that is possible that the EA may be the issue here - could he have misled the vendor about how you planned to finance the purchase in order to get the sale over the line? The school comment also sounds like someone trying (rather badly) to show that you really want the house and he may have hugely overstepped the mark by claiming you’ve registered your child at the school to create a sense of obligation on the vendor?

Absolutely agree with pp to walk away from a property with an illegally built garage.

I’m sorry you’ve experienced this - what an absolute ball ache but it also sounds like you may have dodged a bullet.

@Gamergirl86 "He advised the vendor not to submit any paperwork regarding a garage which was built three years ago but has no planning."

@Allthegoodnamesarechosen
"Building a garage without planning is dodgy to say the least."

@DelphiniumBlue
"The council can ask you to take it down if it's in breach of PP"

@NotOneOfTheInCrowd
"has a garage without planning permission which is highly possible you could be told to pull down."

@Netaporter

" walk away from a property with an illegally built garage."

Frankly, unless this house is in a conservation area or an AONB then it is very unlikely that a garage would need planning permission. I assume the OP knows already whether or not this house is in a conservation area and/or an AONB?

Other than that, garages come under permitted development and, as long as they are built following the rules, then there is no requirement to obtain planning permission.

I feel for you OP, what a kick in the teeth if your heart is set on this house.

Only thing I can add, is that our vendor was elderly and came across a little scatty, but in reality she was a sly old fox and knew exactly what she was doing. Leaving us to dispose of all the crap she left behind - luckily nothing worse than that in our case but a tad annoying nonetheless.

I think your vendor is probably fully aware and in true Scooby Doo style is thinking “coulda got away with it if not for that pesky senior solicitor”.

Best of luck with resolving this whichever way you go.

The owners and their lawyer know there is a problem. In villages where I used to live, all of the cottages used to pump their sewage out into local fields or drainage ditches. Totally illegal. But that is how they did it then and are doing it now.

I would avoid as PP poster said "Honestly things happen for a reason and this isn’t meant to be.
You have a vendor who:

• Is refusing to allow entry or documents regarding sewage,
• has a garage without planning permission which is highly possible you could be told to pull down.
• has accused you of fraud re giving the address for school applications.
• And these are the issues you know about. What are you going to find when you move in and you no longer have any recourse.
• Only a fool would proceed with this."

I would be very suprised if a lot of this is not the vendor and their solicitor liasing. We went ahead with a purchase (we were warned by a wise family member not to proceed) with what felt like bullying behaviour from vendor/solicitor and in particular them not answering questions.Think especially about PP point 4 as well.