Renegotiating price post survey results

[Blu2Seine]

Hi,

We put an offer on a 3 bedroom (2 bedrooms and a box room) semi 1930s house in the southeast. We knew the house would need replastering, redecorating, new kitchen, bathroom, floors and new boiler. We also budgeted for an extension to connect the kitchen diner area, have a bathroom + utility downstairs and ideally another bedroom upstairs (either loft or above the kitchen).

We've just had a L3 survey done, and from the things we hadn't noticed from the viewings, it's found damp in the kitchen, in a bedroom, windows need replacing, but what worries us is there is lath and plaster ceilings and walls that the surveyor said were at the end of their life and need replacing. Also says the loft is inadequately insulated. Unsure if there was asbestos but said there might be in downstairs toilet and potentially in the chimney flues. There were many other issues mentioned (render etc.) but these aren't as concerning.

Whilst we know surveys come back with a long list of problems identified and that sometimes they sound worse than they are, and that you have to differentiate between what's urgent vs what's not, we are still concerned about the lath and plaster issue.

We thought we would be able to live in the house whilst it's being redone but if needs new ceilings, and new walls then we're worried it's going to be a money pit and that it'll be too stressful to take on because we'll have to live with family, also whilst we are planning for a family. We'll renegotiate and offer less, but if they don't accept, we're prepared to walk away.

Based on the above, how much would you suggest knocking off the asking price? We're in a good position because we're chain-free. To note as well: the vendor is eager to get things going before any changes in capital gains tax.

I would get two quotes for the unexpected work needed and use that to say how much you want knocked off. Show quotes as evidence that you aren't taking the piss.

Sounds like you were going to replaster anyway, or were you just talking about skimming?
What’s wrong with the windows? What about the electrics? Personally I would not ignore issues with the render. As it’s 90+ years old, it may well need completely hacking off and replacing.

We live in a very old cottage that we bought 30 years ago. When we had our survey done, it had all sorts of issues. (Not surprisingly as it was old and had been empty for some years). One of the flags was lath and plaster ceilings upstairs that would need replacing soon. Despite extension, knocking down walls here and there and taking out a chimney those ceilings are still there and still look fine. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it has always been our attitude.

For the window it just says in the survey they’re at the end of their useful life. For the plastering you’re right I was thinking about skimming, but not budget to remove the lath and plaster, disposal and then new plaster ceilings and walls.

@Springadorable you’re right we could get some quotes to show we’re not messing around.

We’ve been accommodating so far because we wanted to get the survey done a month ago but they asked we wait until the tenants move out (3 weeks later) which we agreed to. Then they’ve chased us to ask us to get a move on to instruct our solicitors and we said no, not until we get the survey results and reminded them we originally wanted to do the survey a month ago.

@Blu2Seine so have you not instructed solicitors yet? So no searches started or anything like that?

@Springadorable nope we haven't yet, we wanted to wait until we get the results of the survey first.

Ok, I'm surprised the sellers delayed the survey and have been happy to wait for you to start searches, so I wouldn't rely on being in a strong position as nothing has actually happened yet. They aren't as keen to move quickly as they have said as their actions just don't back that up. So negotiate, but decide in advance how you'll feel if they pull out and remarket it or if they won't budge on price.

I have a 150 year old house with lath and plaster ceilings. They're fine. A bit wonky donk, but that's normal. Are you sure your surveyor understands older houses? If they are really "on their last legs" (in what sense?) you can overboard them at no great cost.

When I bought my house 17 years ago, the survey include dire warnings about how the house had lathe and plaster ceilings which were bound to need replacing. The ceilings were perfectly sound - flat and smooth like any other ceiling. I've never replaced them. When my buyers had a level 3 survey done this year which was filled with all kinds of whiny nonsense about irrelevant stuff, the surveyor didn't even mention the ceilings. Conclusion: surveyors are idiots and not worth the money.

Sounds like lathe and plaster ceilings are the least of your worries. As PP said, if they are not cracked and falling down, they’ll most likely be ok. If not, you can board over them using long screws to fix to the rafters. A plasterer can skim an upstairs in a day.
You should focus on the expensive stuff. Rendering, chimneys, roof, electrics, driveway, kitchen, bathrooms, doors, plumbing.
Your first post about extension, kitchen, yada yada is well over 100k of work, maybe 150k.
A lack of loft insulation is nothing to fret over.
If the windows are done for, is that another 30k?

Lath and plaster is fine. Ours in our house is 200 years old and doesn't need replacing. Damp is annoying but often easy to fix if upstairs as it is nearly always leaky gutters or leaky roof.

Another one with a house that the survey said had lath and plaster ceilings that needed urgent replacement. We didn’t replace them, we asked the builders what they thought when we had major work done 3 years ago and they said they thought they were fine.

If I were a vendor and knew you hadn’t even Instructed solicitors then I wouldn’t view that as much better than having just accepted the offer and would personally be tempted to re-market if someone started to try and get money off, especially as it would make me think they didn’t really understand the nature of the (period) house they were trying to buy and would be liable to get cold feet and pull out later anyway.

But you can but try….

Nothing wrong with lath and plaster ceilings. If you really want to change them then board over them, not remove them.

Damp - surveyors use damp meters which are useless so there may or may not be damp.

Windows - all windows can be repaired, especially if wood - double glazed panes can be replaces if blown.

Loft insulation is a matter of personal preference and the age of the house - older houses need to breathe and packing full of insulation will cause as many problems as solve.

More details are needed on each item as to if the work really needs doing and warrants a reduction in price, or it is just the normal surveyor backside covering.

The only way you are going to ensure buying a house which needs nothing doing, or nothing being shown on a survey is to buy new, or one which has just finished renovations.

Well it sounds like you knew it would need work, hardly surprising the survey has flagged up issues.

Thanks all these are really useful insights! Much appreciated as we're new to all this, so this is a learning curve for us.

It could already be priced to sell taking into consideration the work that needs to be done.
I agree - you do need to get two or more quotes for sure…… but has this not put you off buying the property? What’s the budget like and do you have a contingency?

@Blu2Seine Have a look on periodproperty forum - full of useful info and people with lots of knowledge.

Lathe and plaster ceilings are not nearly as scary as they sound. We removed from one room but just plaster boarded over the others.

Those sound like generic 'old house in need of modernisation' things, so I'd guess they are all generally priced into the house as it sits? No harm in trying to negotiate but on a house that needs a load of work anyway, I don't think you will get anywhere.

It all sounds like standard older house stuff that would have already been factored into the asking price.

We have just successfully negotiated a reduction in price following survey, we showed vendor quotes to ensure they new we were being upfront, we then settled on an amount we were both happy with.

We had already decided to walk away if there was no negotiation.

Hi all,

Thanks for the advice this all useful and interesting!

Spoke with a friend who is a structural engineer who reviewed the survey and they estimated there is 60k worth of renovation to do based on the findings. They thought the areas of concern were:

• Movement in the bay windows. The front bay windows are being supported by metal brackets (that are rusting), which is unusual. It's the only house in the area which has these brackets. Might suggest there's been movement to the front bay. So they told us to ask the surveyor and house owner about movement bay vs the house. The concern is if we put new windows in but there's been movement in the bay, then it would be pointless and we'd have to redo the bay?
• Evidence of movement in the back bay windows, movement in the kitchen.
• Front driveway. Report says it's unsuitable for supporting the weight of vehicles (we've never seen cars parked there). It's overlaid with old square concrete pavers with multiple fractures over a sand base. He estimated that would be an expensive job (I thought that was cheap?! I wouldn't even want anything fancy, just gravel, plus its a small driveway).
• Evidence of water damage
• They are concerned by the lath and plaster because from the report they say it really looks like it's falling apart.

They estimated 60k worth of renovations for the following: new windows, full replaster, skirting boards, doors, electrics, woodwork, relaying the front driveway, drains that were noted to be an issue, new boiler, new radiators, new pipework, new bathrooms, redecorating, damp proof course, adding helical bars through cracks found in the walls of the kitchen prior to replastering, levelling the floor in the kitchen (it's moved). All of this before we do any extension.

Having had time to think this over and comparing it with similar houses in the street and nearby streets we've visited (and bid on unsuccessfully), I do think the sale price was too high.

We saw an exact same 1930s semi on the same street for sale a month before, priced exactly the same, however this house had a brand new bathroom and had been replasted, redecorated, new floors. Our house seems like it's been untouched for a very long time time and is falling apart (the tenants had been there 15 years).

Then we also lost out on the purchase of another very similar 1930s semi in an adjacent street, which was priced 75k cheaper. It was in very similar condition (in need of modernisation), however the kitchen and lounges were a lot more modern, they had been recently done up. Same square footage.

So is it still unreasonable to based on the above to go back to vendor to renegotiate? I do think it's been priced too high when I compare it with these 2 other houses.

I think £60,000 is very unrealistic for all that work nowadays. Pre COVID maybe but not now.

Also most of that stuff can be seen from a visual inspection of the house, except the driveway, so you can't ask for money off. Well you can but I don't think the sellers will entertain it. It will have been taken into account with the initial price

@Geneticsbunny I’m not an expert but a lot of those things were definitely not visible from the viewings, and we even took with us our in-laws who have experience with big renovation projects of old houses (and one of them is an engineer) who inspected it really carefully! The only thing they queried were the bay windows because they thought it didn’t look very good, and they noted those metal brackets supporting them.

That’s good. I’m happy to do the same because I want to be transparent with the vendors. What concerns me currently is the sale price of the house, if you add the cost of all those renovations (eg 60k or more), it’s definitely not worth it. Houses that are done up in that area are not worth that amount, so we’d worry we wouldn’t make the money back.