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Aggressive Land Law solicitor sought

224 replies

Dinnerplatedahlia · 19/08/2024 19:25

Does anyone know of a property lawyer who is red hot about covenants and stands no nonsense? We are being pulverised by our affluent neighbours’ solicitor and our solicitor is no match. She sadly dropped the ball during the conveyance process and it has only just come to light. She doesn’t want to go there but unfortunately we’ve got no choice. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks

OP posts:
Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 11:01

@SphincterSaysWhat Thank you very much. It’s hard to know what order to do things in. This helps tremendously 🙏🏼. They (NDNs) didn’t put the covenant on, the ‘greater’ land owner did (who is still there). They simply transferred it to us. There definitely will be financial loss, that will be easy to prove and actually quantify. Re if it’s enforceable, we have left that question with our solicitors and are awaiting an answer. Dreadful position to find yourself in, but although it’s hard, we have to try and put aside the emotion and get on with the job.
If it’s 50/50 it’s fair, although still very poor we weren’t aware.
if it’s 100% it’s not fair but maybe legal so, tough. Either way we want some answers. We have to hope that it will be bought as is, albeit at a very reduced price to compensate.

OP posts:
TheRoseTurtle · 25/08/2024 11:02

Once any course of action wrt your solicitor is underway and you have some headspace, I would definitely look into whether you can pursue your vendors for misrepresentation. They may have a case to answer and if you feel they've been bullying as well as dishonest, it'll help you feel the score is being evened a bit and dampen the senses of powerlessness and resentment.

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 11:49

@TheRoseTurtle Thank you. Good advice. 🙏🏼 Best eaten cold as they say. Where is The Godfather when you need him!! (Joking obviously) …..

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BurntBroccoli · 25/08/2024 14:39

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 11:01

@SphincterSaysWhat Thank you very much. It’s hard to know what order to do things in. This helps tremendously 🙏🏼. They (NDNs) didn’t put the covenant on, the ‘greater’ land owner did (who is still there). They simply transferred it to us. There definitely will be financial loss, that will be easy to prove and actually quantify. Re if it’s enforceable, we have left that question with our solicitors and are awaiting an answer. Dreadful position to find yourself in, but although it’s hard, we have to try and put aside the emotion and get on with the job.
If it’s 50/50 it’s fair, although still very poor we weren’t aware.
if it’s 100% it’s not fair but maybe legal so, tough. Either way we want some answers. We have to hope that it will be bought as is, albeit at a very reduced price to compensate.

Does the original landowner still own the structure/access road that the covenant refers to?

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 15:31

@BurntBroccoli Yes. Well his SiT does…

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DefyingGravitas · 25/08/2024 15:40

if it’s 100% it’s not fair but maybe legal so, tough. Either way we want some answers. We have to hope that it will be bought as is, albeit at a very reduced price to compensate.

In this case wouldn’t you then resort to the claim against your solicitors and their insurance?

If you don’t mind me asking, it seems as though you’ve known about the issue for some months (with trying to resell etc) but have only been waiting for a response from your original solicitors for a few days - did you decide to not immediately ask your solicitors when the neighbour alerted you to this?

BurntBroccoli · 25/08/2024 18:22

Do you have the benefit of the structure as well as the burden?
The benefit should be in part A of the Title register.

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 18:32

DefyingGravitas · 25/08/2024 15:40

if it’s 100% it’s not fair but maybe legal so, tough. Either way we want some answers. We have to hope that it will be bought as is, albeit at a very reduced price to compensate.

In this case wouldn’t you then resort to the claim against your solicitors and their insurance?

If you don’t mind me asking, it seems as though you’ve known about the issue for some months (with trying to resell etc) but have only been waiting for a response from your original solicitors for a few days - did you decide to not immediately ask your solicitors when the neighbour alerted you to this?

Edited

No we absolutely haven’t known about for some months! We put the house on the market because we couldn’t stand the control from the NDNs, it was when the offer came in it came to light so we went back to buyer, explained and reduced the price. We would NEVER try to sell without telling a purchaser because we want to sleep at night and we’re not deceitful people. There’s just no need for it, be honest with people and adjust the price. As neighbours go in terms of noise, you couldn’t ask for better. However they are bullies and you have to stand up to them. We have started to do that in the past couple of weeks and we are, like dog training, getting some serious push back and tantrums. To the point where she came out and verbally abused my husband shouting like a Billingsgate fishwife. Why? Because he was doing something with our property that she doesn’t like. You have no idea. He just kept repeating, Go Away. She did eventually but not without mocking him for losing his job (he hasn’t but he’s taking AL - she’s never worked so she doesn’t probably understand that).
In answer to your second part, absolutely, if you read up thread that’s what we will have to do.

OP posts:
Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 18:34

BurntBroccoli · 25/08/2024 18:22

Do you have the benefit of the structure as well as the burden?
The benefit should be in part A of the Title register.

Yes.

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DefyingGravitas · 25/08/2024 19:06

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 18:32

No we absolutely haven’t known about for some months! We put the house on the market because we couldn’t stand the control from the NDNs, it was when the offer came in it came to light so we went back to buyer, explained and reduced the price. We would NEVER try to sell without telling a purchaser because we want to sleep at night and we’re not deceitful people. There’s just no need for it, be honest with people and adjust the price. As neighbours go in terms of noise, you couldn’t ask for better. However they are bullies and you have to stand up to them. We have started to do that in the past couple of weeks and we are, like dog training, getting some serious push back and tantrums. To the point where she came out and verbally abused my husband shouting like a Billingsgate fishwife. Why? Because he was doing something with our property that she doesn’t like. You have no idea. He just kept repeating, Go Away. She did eventually but not without mocking him for losing his job (he hasn’t but he’s taking AL - she’s never worked so she doesn’t probably understand that).
In answer to your second part, absolutely, if you read up thread that’s what we will have to do.

I’m sorry, I 100% wasn’t trying to suggest at all that you were going to sell without disclosing it. I was just trying to figure out the timing of asking your solicitors to explain / assist.. But this completely makes sense. It seems that your possible buyer’s solicitors did the right thing and found out the information that you should have been told by your solicitors when purchasing? I’m really sorry you’re in this situation!

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 19:20

@DefyingGravitas Thank you. We did declare in on the TP form (can’t remember the number) also. He said he’d accept the risk, take the reduction and do the repairs but ultimately got bad vibes (to quote him). Ironically I don’t think they’d play him up…not for very long anyway.

OP posts:
Northby · 25/08/2024 19:37

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 11:01

@SphincterSaysWhat Thank you very much. It’s hard to know what order to do things in. This helps tremendously 🙏🏼. They (NDNs) didn’t put the covenant on, the ‘greater’ land owner did (who is still there). They simply transferred it to us. There definitely will be financial loss, that will be easy to prove and actually quantify. Re if it’s enforceable, we have left that question with our solicitors and are awaiting an answer. Dreadful position to find yourself in, but although it’s hard, we have to try and put aside the emotion and get on with the job.
If it’s 50/50 it’s fair, although still very poor we weren’t aware.
if it’s 100% it’s not fair but maybe legal so, tough. Either way we want some answers. We have to hope that it will be bought as is, albeit at a very reduced price to compensate.

This sounds like NDN aren’t the beneficiary, they are just trying to pass the buck to you? If so, that is good news as it makes it a bit more likely you could get title indemnity cover for it, if the beneficiary hasn’t actually been in touch or tried to enforce the covenant. Definitely check this out before talking to NDN or beneficiary any further!

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 19:46

Northby · 25/08/2024 19:37

This sounds like NDN aren’t the beneficiary, they are just trying to pass the buck to you? If so, that is good news as it makes it a bit more likely you could get title indemnity cover for it, if the beneficiary hasn’t actually been in touch or tried to enforce the covenant. Definitely check this out before talking to NDN or beneficiary any further!

Ok will do Northby. Thank you.

OP posts:
BurntBroccoli · 25/08/2024 21:30

I think this case in law may apply:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhonevv_Stephens

If so, it may be good news for you in that the positive covenant does not run with the land but is a personal covenant between the original parties to the deed.

There may be a complication however due to the fact that you do have the benefit of the structure. Could you live in the house without this benefit?

Dinnerplatedahlia · 25/08/2024 21:33

BurntBroccoli · 25/08/2024 21:30

I think this case in law may apply:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhonevv_Stephens

If so, it may be good news for you in that the positive covenant does not run with the land but is a personal covenant between the original parties to the deed.

There may be a complication however due to the fact that you do have the benefit of the structure. Could you live in the house without this benefit?

Thank you. No we couldn’t sadly. I will read this though….

OP posts:
Northby · 26/08/2024 23:10

Not to be a party pooper, but covenants are a technically complex area of law. I would steer clear of Wikipedia, for your sanity’s sake. To summarise the position (in extremely general terms): Positive covenants don’t run with (or “stick to”) the land in the same way restrictive covenants do, but they can be passed down contractually to successors in title through deeds of covenant to indemnify the performance of the covenant (this forms the “indemnity chain” I mentioned previously). By way of illustration, this means something like:

B promises to pay X to A

B sells to C and C promises to B that if A asks for X then C will reimburse B

then C sells to D and D promises to C that if A asks for X then D will reimburse C who then reimburses B (etc etc).

These indemnity covenants are noted on the title register - each one would have been part of the wording of the deed of transfer when purchasing the property.

A complicating factor is what happens when land which is burdened by a positive covenant is sold in part - without a deed of indemnity, would the positive covenant continue to burden the new parcel? I suspect not, but I’d be interested to know what OP’s legal advisor says in due course. The legal analysis on this scenario can’t be performed except by OP’s legal advisor, who will have all the information needed.

As an aside, I can think of a number of instances in law of enjoying the benefit of something without paying for it - think of a freehold first floor flat which benefits from the right of support from the flat underneath. They won’t be automatically required to contribute to the ground floor flat’s structural maintenance! So I think that the idea of maintenance being linked to enjoying the benefit of the structure is probably a red herring.

Let is know how you get on, OP.

Dinnerplatedahlia · 27/08/2024 12:44

@Northby yes you’ve raised some interesting points, thank you. This post has been very useful to help clarify our questions for lawyers and of course, helps us understand their explanations. As you say, until an expert gets all the information and time lines in front of them, it’s impossible to give a correct answer….sometimes even then it’s not possible!
I certainly will update this thread, although I imagine that won’t be for some time.
Thanks again 🙏🏼

OP posts:
Dinnerplatedahlia · 28/08/2024 08:38

Another question please. How is the PII process instigated? Do we instigate it, is it automatic during an investigation or do the practice initiate it? TIA.

OP posts:
SphincterSaysWhat · 28/08/2024 09:15

If you want to pursue a claim against the original firm of solicitors for prof negligence, you'll need to start the claims process. People usually get solicitors to deal with this.

The firm puts their PII provider on notice and await your Letter Before Action or Particulars of Claim. When they get that, they'll send it to the PII provider who will get their own panel solicitors to deal with it. From then on, the solicitors (yours and the insurer's solicitors) will deal with the back and forth.

You have to establish loss and cause.

If they agree with the cause, there will be a dance back and forth before settlement happens. The conveyancing solicitors will NOT want this matter to proceed to court, a judge will generally find in favour of the claimant (the member of the public) so they will settle.

You will be put to proof on every statement you make. Don't be hyperbolic, don't exaggerate or play down stuff. Be truthful and calm.

Loss and cause. This is the whole foundation of any claim.

The legal fight will be around this covenant if you are absolutely sure it was missed and shouldn't have been. That's why your current firm, the original, should be assessing whether or not this covenant is damaging and does indeed run with the land. Let them do this work for you / get them to get an Opinion if it's not clear. Then take it from there.

Dinnerplatedahlia · 28/08/2024 17:18

@SphincterSaysWhat Thank you so much (again). 🙏🏼

OP posts:
SphincterSaysWhat · 19/09/2024 22:47

How are you getting on, OP?

Dinnerplatedahlia · 20/09/2024 19:22

It’s gone very quiet as we’ve submitted a detailed complaint, keeping it very factual as your good self and also @Alilacat advised. They can have eight weeks to respond. It’s removed from open market until we find a resolution.
Thank you for asking @SphincterSaysWhat. ☺️

OP posts:
Mirabai · 20/09/2024 21:32

Good luck OP

Dinnerplatedahlia · 20/09/2024 22:55

Mirabai · 20/09/2024 21:32

Good luck OP

Thank you. 🙏🏼

OP posts:
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