Being billed for service of windows in warranty

[Ivanbondar]

Hey

I moved into a house 3 years ago. Previous owner had fakro skylights installed in 2016. Fakro windows have a 10 year guarantee.

Noticed a leak in the window so called them. Assumed we were under warranty because it was only 8 years.

Received a document to sign and only noticed now that the wording seems off, it should include an "IF." But the way I understood it was that "(if) the windows are out of warranty then the charges are listed below," because it also says in a seperate box, "there will be no charge for warranty issues" so we understood that we were under warranty and so there was no charge.

We understood their exclusions and that if the problem was caused by us or an installer then we could be liable. However the repair guys suggested that it was a seal (seemed like the simplest thing and took 45 minutes) definitely not a "full reseal". So it is highly unlikely it was a non warranty issue. If it was we would have expected the repair guys to communicate as such but they acted like it was the simplest and obvious option...

Why are we being charged £800?

Many thanks

Please see the attachment

Does the warranty transfer to a new purchaser?

I notice when I bought a range cooker recently that it specifically said the warranty only applied to the registered purchaser and could not be transferred to a new owner.

The word purchaser is used in your warranty picture.

The actual warranty documentation does not specify that it has to be the purchaser.

It does not specify in the warranty details, so it doesn't not transfer to new purchaser

I don't read it the way you do, sorry OP. It seems quite clear that the windows are out of warranty and the charges are listed below.

There would have to be 2 missing words for the intention to be how you read it.

That's fine you don't read it the same however the warranty is for 10 years and they were installed 8 years ago.

The 2 missing words would be if windows out of warranty, then charges listed below. As it is, the line is a statement that the windows are out of warranty.

That's fair enough, although I would still argue that it is poor grammar and not written clearly.

all that aside why would they be out of warranty when they have a 10 year warranty. We have read all the exclusions and none of them are valid.

The problem is you keep calling yourself the purchaser and you are not. You did not buy the windows, the previous owner did.

They are not honouring the warranty because the warranty refers to the person who spent the money in the first place, NOT the current home owner. You purchased the house, and thanks to their very sly wording on the warranty, they have no obligations to you under it.

Let’s say you sold the house back to it’s previous occupants and they had this problem: the window company would still honour the warranty as that’s the person who paid them in the first place.

For them still to be under warranty to you, it would have to refer to the home owner or just the owner.

I am sorry. It’s a con and a cunning way of getting out of their responsibilities, but this is how I am reading it.

Only the company can tell you why it's out of warranty. I think PPs are probably right in that because you weren't the purchaser then the warranty doesn't apply to you, but only Fakro will be able to tell you for sure.

OK thanks for your help. It is stupid how a warranty does not apply to the buyer of a home. And yes the wording is "sly."

What have the company said about the warranty?

They sent the bill at 5pm on Friday so I don't know. Unfortunately I believe it is a lesson learnt for me. Assumption is the mother of all f@@@ ups! I just thought the warranty would carry over to the house purchaser, it seems silly not to. I will write a letter of complaint as I do believed their letter was crafted in order to cause confusion. If it is out of warranty then it doesn't need to say in Big lettering that there is no charge for warranty issues. I may not have a leg to stand on but I also do not have a spare 800 quid.

Does anyone else think the letter is purposely misleading or am I clutching ar straws?

Ty

I think some people here are being a bit harsh. That document is very poorly written and it does state that there's no charge for warranty issues.

Where a contract is unclear a court would interpret it in favour of the person who did not draft it - so you.

However, the critical point is whether, in actual fact, the windows were in guarantee. We don't know that.

Do you have the warranty paperwork? That's going to contain the information you need.

I couldn't find the UK warranty wording, but I found the US version. I'd guess the wording is very similar. It says the warranty is only provided to the original purchaser.

Basically, I think you're not covered but if it was me I'd at least try and argue I was to reduce the bill. £800 for a bit of resealing is ridiculous!

You could argue 'misrepresentation'. So say you only agreed to the repair on the understanding it was under warranty as it was within 10 years and it says in big letters on the front that there's no charge for warranty issues. It's clear you wouldn't have agreed to the repair if it had been out of warranty.
The fact that the charge seems excessive would be likely to work in your favour.
Even if you can't get out of the full bill I think you'd be able to get it substantially reduced.

This isn't my area of law though. Maybe ask this question on the legal board.

Hi @Bluebell247 , thanks for going out of your way to look at the warranty. I also found the USA warranty, and imagine they are the same as the UK. It first says "end user" and then specifies end user as the original purchaser. I do think this is absurd, but I imagine it is common practice, but it makes me wonder why when we buy and sell homes do we show warranties of installed products if they are completely useless. I admit fault on my part for not referring to the warranty.

I am curious as to why you think their document is poorly written?

Others have covered the legality, I agree you should post on Legal.

Some things I do take issue with:

One. Nowhere on their website does it say their 10 year warranty for glazing units or windows only applies to the purchaser.

Two. You have to APPLY for a guarantee certificate. 'Guarantees are issued on request.' Is this normal? As far as I'm aware, if you have a FENSA certified window installed by a glazier, you get a FENSA certificate with it - it's something conveyancers rely on during a purchase. Our surveyor picked up on lack of British Kitemarks on several windows in a house we were thinking of buying, they could only produce 6 out of around 12 FENSA certificates, and our conveyancer would not let it drop.

Third. Was the previous home owner aware that the warranty isn't transferrable? I see nothing on their website that suggests they are open about it. Was the homeowner lumped with a useless (to you) warranty after they had paid for it and had it installed? That's not very transparent. You could perhaps argue they had misled the previous homeowner, if that person is willing to help you.

Four. Where's the quote for the work? I see various numbers in the service request below, do they add up to £800? I don't know of any company who don't give an actual detailed quote for works and ask for approval before proceeding.

Five. I definitely agree that the wording THERE WILL BE NO CHARGE FOR WARRANTY ISSUES is misleading. Now, it could be terrible planning on their part: they use the same document for both people in warranty and people not in warranty, but the end result, I believe, is that you have been misled into believing you would not be charged.

Unfortunately, these people don't seem to be regulated by anybody at all, which is a shame. So, it may be if those over on Legal believe you have a case, you'll need to issue a small claims court case against them.

Sometimes, a letter before action may be all you need to make them back off:

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim-aSFAC8Q6Jqan

Going back to my range cooker (which, it turns out, is one I actually didn't buy)

Advert

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8769439

Go to 'view document', leads to this:

Page 37, bullet point 3:

https://documents.4rgos.it/v1/static/8769439_R_D001

It must be used solely for domestic purposes. The guarantee will be rendered invalid if the product is re-sold or has been damaged by inexpert repair

Having this information in advance informed my decision NOT to buy it, because I intend to sell my range cooker to my Landlady when we move out of her house. I chose to buy one that said no such thing about the warranty conditions - and went out of my way to check the online documentation before doing so.

It could be that withholding such information from the previous homeowner is in breach of Trades Descriptions? Idk.

Good luck, OP.

It looks like there are various warranties and guarantees available on some window purchases, and it seems it has to be down to the buyer to be clued up about them. One company who are transparent:

https://expresswindowsgroup.co.uk/a-guide-to-understanding-window-warranty-terms/

Thanks so much @KievLoverTwo for your comprehensive assessment and advice. I value your opinions on the matter.

I don't know whether the purchaser was aware of the warranty situation but when Googling the warranty pdf doc as @Bluebell247 and I have, the USA warranties specify the warranty is for the "end user" and the end user in their document is the purchaser. I imagine it is the same in the UK.

I was not made aware of a FENSA certificate or a warranty, (we bought in an extreme sellers market and had been looking in the area for 2 years living in a airbnb) so I guess we didn't pay enough attention and were desperate (4 previous buys fell through) 😞. So I was actually just going off the fact that I knew it was installed 8 years ago based on planning permission and that they list 10 year warranty's on their website. When I requested a repair, they failed to let me know I wasn't in warranty. I guess they just have a record of the purchaser and our name isn't his, however we could have probably asked him to submit the claim on our behalf.

We were sent a seperate invoice with £300 call out fee and £300 for the parts and labour. Totalling 600 + VAT = £720, it was a 45 minute job to refit a broken seal, I believe.

I've constructed a letter containing all relevant details, if you read it, let me know your thoughts :):

Dear CEO Noel Gerard Shanahan,

I am writing to express my profound frustration and disappointment regarding the misleading service claim form and the extensive delay in resolving the issue with the windows installed by your company at my property.
The deceptive tactics employed on the service claim form are deeply concerning. The form's layout, formatting, grammar, and use of colours create confusion, particularly for customers with learning difficulties such as dyslexia. The contradictory information presented, including the separation of relevant details into different sections and the bold assertion of no charges for warranty issues, misleads customers and contributes to their frustration.
The first box, which is red, indeed states "windows out of warranty, charges listed below." There are charges listed, but they are in a separate box, which is green, creating the impression of a separate document or occurrence. Moreover, the charges refer to issues with installation and negligence and are not specific in applying to the "Description of the issue" in the green box above. To clarify, the charges mentioned should be listed below in the same box, using the same typography and colour, to ensure clarity and transparency. The current layout suggests that there are no charges associated with warranty issues, which is misleading. Consistency in typography and layout within the same box is crucial to avoid confusion and ensure that customers are fully informed of any potential charges. Furthermore, the statement, "windows out of warranty" does not specify whose windows are out of warranty, suggesting that this is a proforma template sent to anyone who makes a Service Request.

Moreover, the phrase "should it be chargeable" in the second and green box implies uncertainty regarding whether the service will incur charges, suggesting that charges will only apply in cases of negligence by the installer or purchaser. These statements, along with the prominently displayed "There will be no charge for warranty issues," create further confusion regarding the potential for charges. Why include this statement if indeed the windows were out of warranty? The mere fact of suggesting that there will be no charges for warranty issues creates the deception that the warranty is valid. If the warranty is not valid, this information should be the most prominent sentence on the page, not the opposite information.

I was aware that the windows were installed post-2015 due to planning permission granted in 2015. Fakro windows come with a 10-year warranty. Therefore, it would still be valid in 2024. I requested the service with the comfort of knowing a 10-year warranty was in place. If there was negligence by the installer or misuse by the purchaser, then that would have to be established. Fakro gave me no reason to think the warranty was anything but valid, and the request was made on that basis. As far as I can see from the work done, there is no suggestion of consumer or customer fault, so no charge should be payable. The Service Request form appeared to be a proforma document whereby the only information that is changed between each customer is the name, address, contact details, and product. If the windows were or were not in warranty, everyone would receive the same form. No indication was made to suggest the windows' warranty had expired or been invalidated by the installer or anyone else. We do not have a copy of the warranty, and it is Fakro’s responsibility to make sure we are aware of the warranty. If the warranty stipulates that only the purchaser can make a service claim under warranty, then we could have got the original purchaser to make the claim. There was no effort on Fakro's part to ascertain whether the windows were covered by warranty or communicate your findings with us. Furthermore, before and during the repair work, no communication regarding the warranty was made clear.

The first box in red. Red, when used next to the colour green, is traditionally used as "stop," and the green indicates "go," suggesting that the green box is relevant to the customer in this instance. Furthermore, the green box is the part of the form that has been signed, not the red box.

The service claim form also states that parts may take 20-25 days to arrive. However, from the date I requested the service to the actual servicing, a staggering 90 days elapsed. Services are protected under the Consumer Rights Act, which mandates that services must be completed within a reasonable time. While I understand that 20-25 days for parts to arrive is reasonable, the amount of time elapsed in my case tripled this expectation. This prolonged delay further compounds the issues and adds to the frustration and inconvenience experienced.

As a customer, it is abundantly clear to me that these intentional misrepresentations were crafted to deceive and mislead. The combination of misleading information and prolonged delay has resulted in substantial damage to my property and a loss of income, as I rent out the affected room.
Therefore, I demand fair and appropriate compensation for the damages incurred, including reimbursement for the repair costs, loss of income, and any additional expenses related to this matter. I am pursuing this claim under the Misrepresentation Act 1967, as the deliberate misrepresentations on the service claim form constitute a breach of statutory duty.

I expect a prompt response outlining the steps you will take to address this demand for compensation.

Thank you for your immediate attention to this matter.

I wouldn't send this; it's really confrontational and will get you nowhere. It's not best practice to send a complaint straight to a CEO anyway; they'll pass it on to a delegate who will be really irritated that their boss is telling them to sort it out, and be annoyed that you went over the head of all the customer service people below him/her. Letters to CEOs should only ever be a last ditch attempt when all else has failed.

Furthermore, if you ever need work done on this particular window that only they can do because they have specialist parts specific to their windows, they might even blacklist you; best not to antagonise them with your first communication.

Whenever I think about a company not doing right by me, after initially getting annoyed, the first logical thing I think about is 'do I need them more than they need me?' - e.g., I order something on a regular basis that only two companies supply, and they're both as bad as each other in terms of short changing me, so the answer is yes - they don't need me, but I need them, otherwise I literally can't heat my house affordably. If I used other companies, I'd pay an extra 40%.

I expect a prompt response outlining the steps you will take to address this demand for compensation.

What do you want compensation for?

Your first two steps, as far as I am concerned:

One. Get a copy of the warranty from the people you bought the house from.

Two. Find out why your conveyancer didn't flag this lack of transferability to you, if that is in fact the case. As a pp over at Legal mentioned in your other thread, they can be held liable. But idk if it's their job to check warranties; you will have to ask in your thread back over in Legal.

It could be that the window company are trying to pull a fast one, and didn't mention anything about the warranty only applying to the purchaser in the paperwork to the previous homeowner at all. Or, it could be that they've changed their policy over the years.

I did notice that on your screenshot it mentioned LIMITED warranty, but on their website there is no mention of any different types of warranty, or warranties being limited.

But you won't know until you see what they paid for. This should have all been handed over to you as part of the purchase, so, imo, you are perfectly entitled to ask for it.

I've just got all our paperwork together for our sale and it's the exception that the warranty or guarantee is transferable to the new owners, I was really surprised going through it all.

Hello everyone, just to update this thread, I sent the letter and they have waived all fees :) Thanks for all input

Good for you.

... that letter was insane.

But, sometimes, insane works :)

Well done!