Ireland - historic planning permission query

[MainlyTired]

I’ve put Ireland in the post title coz I imagine rules/laws are different from the UK. My late parents’ house is to be sold. They built it in the 1970s. We are being told by a local architect who consulted with the town planner at the council (this is all via my dad’s solicitor who is dealing with probate etc) that they built it without planning permission.

This is almost inconceivable to me as they were very much the kind of people to make sure everything was in order. There had been planning permission granted to the owner of the land that my parents bought it from, but they built a slightly different house. My dad worked in the building trade so would have totally known that new planning permission was needed.
The council does not have a record of an application. But we are getting this all very second hand, and with very little detail – ‘they seem to have’ this and that, no dates, etc.
Is it possible that the paperwork is simply missing? It’s from the 70s, would be paper only, and I am familiar with archives and how things do get lost. We are being quoted a huge sum of money by the architect for creating new house plans and applying for retention permission (kind of retrospective planning permission).
Knowing my parents, the most likely scenario to me is that records are missing, but is that realistic? We’ve scoured every bit of paperwork left in their house but can’t find anything to confirm either way. I don’t live in Ireland but I’m going to be there in a few weeks – would I be allowed to go the council myself and see what they have on record in the flesh? And advice on this whole situation?

Am bumping this in the hopes it catches the eye of someone who might be able to offer advice!

I know that Kildare County Council's online planning system is searchable and has got planning permissions on it back to the 1970s. Have a look at the one for your county. I recently bought a house so I looked up the planning for all of the houses we viewed in the process. It does look like planning pre-1980s or so was very ad hoc with little or no documentation in a lot of cases. I would check it out with your solicitor to see how it might affect the sale of the house.

It might be worth engaging a local planning consultant who would be best placed to advise on the need for retrospective planning permission given the age of the property.

Thanks @HellersK . I did do that - I think it has records online 'since 1973' which is the year it would have been applied for so I'm not entirely sure if it would be included in the online search. It wasn't there anyway.
Do you know if a member of the public can request information about paper records pre-1973.

The town planner has already looked and said there's no record. But how would we ever know, I wonder, if the record was just lost/misfiled at some point over the decades?

Thanks @CCLCECSC I can only assume it is still needed if the solicitor and architect are saying so

It's just that I find it hard to believe it wasn't applied for at the time. And I'm wondering how much we can rely on the fact that there is no record as evidence that it didn't happen. Given that it was 50 years ago.

I can't comment on this specifically but I can tell you that records in the 1970s are pretty ropey. For example my parents marriage cert was wrong in several places. Many things were written down on paper and mistranscribed etc.
It's only a problem if it's a problem for a purchaser. There's a 7 year rule in Ireland around councils not being able to take out enforcement action so the only question is whether it is mortgageable.
I'd personally pop it on the market for sale, be clear that you have no planning documents and see what happens.

I've recently sold a house (in Ireland) and needed new plans as it was slightly different to the original 1990s plan.
Also, I know of a similar issue where plans were burnt in a fire and new permission was needed before selling.
I am very sceptical of whole process and it appears solicitors/planners/engineers are in cahoots a bit to milk the sellers for what they can!
My new plans to sell my house cost about €3k. That included the engineer doing the drawings, planning application, ad in paper, retrospective applications slightly more costly than normal permission.
Definitely do visit the council office to see if you can find original and first. They may not be all online.

You're probably not going to get anyone in the council to admit that they lost planning files. The solicitor is responsible for getting the proof of planning as part of the sale so I would contact them for advice - a solicitor in Ireland obviously. Worst case might be having to apply for retention, which I can't see them refusing for a house that's been built for 50 years! However not an expert on this, but solicitors are.

Thanks @Sodndashitall I've heard of the 7 year rule but I can't find any info online about how this might impact a sale. If the council is not allowed to take out enforcement action after 7 years, would that not apply to any new owner - and if so presumably it shouldn't bother a mortgage lender?
Not expecting you to know the answer - just thinking aloud! 😊

Thanks @Thirder yes I must admit I'm a bit sceptical myself. We're being quoted around 5,000 euros for the work 😠

Thanks @HellersK it's the solicitor who is passing on all this info and is advising us to get new plans drawn up and apply for retention, but it'll cost around 5,000 euros. I'm just concerned that it's only necessary coz records might have been lost, which is frustrating. Of course I could be wrong...

It's a problem because there is no planning permission if something happens to the house. If it burns down the owner has no planning permission to rebuild it. Unlikely but you can see it might make banks jittery about lending on it.

@UnreliableNarrative ah that makes sense, thanks!

It's ultimately irrelevant if the application was lost or whatever.

The fact is there's no evidence of planning permission. Without it, the house is unsellable.

So retention permission is required and I think €5k sounds fairly reasonable but of course you can ask for other quotes. You want someone who knows what they are doing - there's a prospect that the structure might have to be partially or fully removed if not granted.

Did your parents have a mortgage on the house? Or did they ever have a loan on it. Even back in the 70s they would have had to show proof of planning to draw down funds. I'd look at any place they borrowed money from using the house as collateral and see if you can find proof of planning there.

I would also go in myself to the local authority and do a search. No one is going to be as keen to find that planning permission as you are.

And like a pp said, in the end of the day if you can't find the planning permission (and it really doesn't seem that outrageous to me that your dad would have deviated from the original planning permission without thinking too much of it) you have to suck up the costs of getting retrospective approval.

The 5k eur fee is probably for a standard planning application. It may be worth checking what specifically is required for retrospective planning.
I've applied (in uk) for planning permission which was granted and all I had was an straightforward floor plan such as an estate agent one, some outline drawings from an architect and a set of documents which I prepared myself. This was for an extension.
It took a bit of research but I just looked at previous similar applications and spoke to the planning dept.
I'd suggest you do the same, find out what specifically is needed in terms of drawings. That's the bit that costs the most, having the architect drawings. It may not even really be required

In the UK you can apply for a lawful development certificate to regularise things. Is there an equivalent in Ireland?

But I'd do more significant searches myself first. Do you know the architect practice you used? Have you seen the deeds to see if they give any clues?

Thanks @Pallisers yes they had a mortgage, but the solicitor thinks they might've got the mortgage with the planning permission that came with the land but then built a different house. But my dad wouldn't move known that new permission was needed so it's really odd.
But it's all surmising - no one seems to know!