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How to make a cheeky offer without alienating seller/EA?

153 replies

User7164 · 09/01/2024 14:42

Hello!

We are first time buyers and have been house searching for the last year or so. Recently found a house we love, good area for raising our little one schools nearby and a quiet cul de sac. The house is listed for £450K and has been on the market for >5 months.

The average selling price in the street is quite high with a few (bigger houses with bigger gardens) going for 450-500k, but we feel for the size and garden size of this one, and the money we’d need to invest in replacing all bathrooms and upgrading kitchen (and perhaps an extension) that it’s not worth 450. In all honestly, I think it’s around 100k overpriced.

We think our absolute max that we believe the house Is worth would be 400k. We want to go in with a low offer, but I’m cautious as the last time we offered 15% below on a house we liked the EA basically cut us off. I don’t want to offend the seller at all because they were so lovely!!

Any tips on how to go into this? Thanks!

OP posts:
BeadedBubbles · 11/01/2024 20:22

Oh wow - good negotiating op!

Londongent · 11/01/2024 20:44

Well done on negotiations.
Check what the cost of £10k over the lifespan of your mortgage is each month. Seems like you may have a bargain. If it really is the house you want do the sums first to make sure you are happy with what you would be paying.

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 20:50

Sounds promising that you will be able to get it for 400-410k, good negotiating!

Lokkii · 11/01/2024 20:54

I'd go back with £405k and say that really is your absolute max budget, hopefully they'll accept as you're being reasonable by increasing slightly and everyone's happy.

If either party feel resentful over the agreed price the conveyancing usually goes sour very quickly.

KievLoverTwo · 11/01/2024 20:55

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 13:07

I've posted exactly what he said on the House Prices thread but as I said before, not going to get into a big debate on this one

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/property/4962510-house-prices?page=5&reply=132138100

I'm posting this here on purpose, irrespective of whether this derails OP's thread or not - sorry, OP. However, I have sound reason for doing so.

To me, this is not about whether Charlie is right or wrong about house prices. It's about you replying on almost any thread in which he has been referenced to advise other people on the thread that he cannot be taken seriously.

I'm sorry, but put house prices aside for a moment - a LOT of the advice Charlie gives out is really level headed and sensible and has been really helpful to me, as a would-be FTB. For starters, I now know how to download and analyse the data for myself, and it stops me from believing headlines (which journalists just copy and paste from press releases without fact checking).

I dislike you swaying people away from watching him on the basis that you cannot believe he can be taken seriously.

It doesn't matter what he's trying to sell, if and when he does. I repeat:

a LOT of the advice Charlie gives out is really level headed and sensible and has been really helpful to me, as a would-be FTB.

Your argument seems to be that such substantial house price falls have yet to be seen. And that any 'sensible' person wouldn't believe his -35% prediction.

Perhaps you have referred to what appears in the press, perhaps you have looked at the Land Registry's own press releases, which are seasonally adjusted so as not to scare people (read: fudged with). But the data appears in a way that's not very useful. It's a single figure, with every single property lumped together, and they use AVERAGES and not MEDIANS.

They cover the entire country as one, they don't show you regions.

They don't break anything down into property types in their releases.

They fail to provide enough information or in the right format for the reader to make an informed decision about its potential accuracy, or lack thereof.

I've crunched some numbers myself tonight. I have looked at two months: April 2022 and October 2023. October 2023 will still be a sample size, but as it represents far more than 10% of previous house sale numbers, we should take it seriously.

NOTTINGHAMSHIRE

MEDIAN - ALL PROPERTIES

April 1st-30th 2022 - £214,000 (average: £256,996)
Oct 1st-31st 2023 - £212,000 (average: £241,092)

MEDIAN DETACHED, NON NEW-BUILD

Apr 22 - £331,000
Apr 23 - £300,000
Oct 23 - £308,330

NORTH YORKSHIRE

MEDIAN - ALL PROPERTIES

April 1st-30th 2022 - £255,000 (average £316,747)
Oct 1st-31st 2023 - £253,000 (average £307,739)

Apr 22 - £425,000
Apr 23 - £385,000
Oct 23 - £375,000

  • however, when I download all the data, add it up and get an AVERAGE for October 2023, the average is £411,910, which is substantially different to 375k, and gives the impression prices haven't fallen all that much since April 22 (for those who don't understand - it's because people are selling more expensive houses, not because prices have risen).

Purchases completed in October 23 will have generally been agreed in April 23. The BoE base rate rose by 1% afterwards.

Do you think that house prices continued to grow afterwards? In some areas, I'm sure they did, especially when it comes to well-to-do areas and catchment areas for the most sought-after schools.

You can see the stark difference in house prices when you lump them all together versus when you look at a particular property type, the sort of house I am after in North Yorkshire has dropped by 11.76%, so as much as you think Charlie's plucking numbers from [insert relevant part], I really don't. That's not to say I believe they'll necessarily fall 35% peak to trough across all property types, across the country, but things aren't looking good for detached home owners in Notts or N Yorks, are they?

I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss him and his views without data, on the basis of people being 'sensible.'

Feel free to tell me my three hours of number crunching this afternoon was not the actions of a 'sensible' person, by all means.

I hope I've made my point clear. You and I got into a spat about Charlie about a month after I started posting on Mumsnet and you have yet to stop warning first time buyers away from him, without fully understanding the breadth of advice he gives out (which is tedious, long winded and hard work to watch).

Your argument is: there are other sources out there.

No, there are not. There's no single source that presents the numbers the way I just have. There's no single source who talks you through how to make an offer, how to avoid agreeing to raise your offer because EAs are taught how to do that, the history of house pricing in the UK (along with Alex Groundwater), the economy, and so many more things I can't remember because it's taken a bleeding age to write this post and I'm now starving. There is no source that gives me all this information, even now, six months down the line, when google target feeds me all manner of housing news.

There has been NO single or even multiple sources that have furnished me with what I now know about the housing market and the behaviour of estate agents and buyers and sellers from watching hour upon hour of him droning on and on.

(dear other readers: Charlie's like Marmite, but I'm pretty ambivalent about him)

There may be sources for you, who has bought and sold multiple times and knows all the the tricks, but for someone who has never bought before, which includes the OP @User7164, there's nobody out there who can help a newb as much as he does.

I'll be saving a link to this post in case I need to reply to you in the future :)

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 21:09

Look - you’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I think he’s a charlatan preying on vulnerable people who desperately want to believe his message. I don’t bring his name up first on threads but when other people start promoting him, I react. He does what he does for money and a lot of his advice has already been proven to be wrong. That’s my genuine belief whether you agree or not.

Sorry @User7164 your thread got derailed. @KievLoverTwo I don’t know why this couldn’t have been posted on my house prices thread as suggested instead of someone else’s thread where they are trying to get help not get caught up in our longstanding debate re a YouTuber.

NewFriendlyLadybird · 11/01/2024 21:12

User7164 · 11/01/2024 20:12

Update - EA went back to seller with 400K and called us within a few minutes saying their lowest line would be 430. We told them we would mull it over but 400 was really our budget, received another call a couple hours later asking if we would be interested in going back with 410… so they’re definitely willing to come down. We have told them we are still going to hold out a little longer to think it over, if mortgage rates come down significantly we’ll consider 410. Until then will see if the waiting around urges them to come down to 400 to facilitate a quicker sale.

Good negotiation!

KievLoverTwo · 11/01/2024 21:14

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 21:09

Look - you’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I think he’s a charlatan preying on vulnerable people who desperately want to believe his message. I don’t bring his name up first on threads but when other people start promoting him, I react. He does what he does for money and a lot of his advice has already been proven to be wrong. That’s my genuine belief whether you agree or not.

Sorry @User7164 your thread got derailed. @KievLoverTwo I don’t know why this couldn’t have been posted on my house prices thread as suggested instead of someone else’s thread where they are trying to get help not get caught up in our longstanding debate re a YouTuber.

Because OP is a first time buyer, and you keep putting them off from watching him. Today you accused people who listen to him of not being sensible, and I wanted OP to get a different view point from yours. Charlatan or not, I've yet to see you back up your distaste of him with any actual facts.

XVGN · 11/01/2024 21:27

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 21:09

Look - you’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I think he’s a charlatan preying on vulnerable people who desperately want to believe his message. I don’t bring his name up first on threads but when other people start promoting him, I react. He does what he does for money and a lot of his advice has already been proven to be wrong. That’s my genuine belief whether you agree or not.

Sorry @User7164 your thread got derailed. @KievLoverTwo I don’t know why this couldn’t have been posted on my house prices thread as suggested instead of someone else’s thread where they are trying to get help not get caught up in our longstanding debate re a YouTuber.

He's not a charlatan - based on the dictionary definition. Find a different term.

What message do you think that he is preying on vulnerable people with? I can probably prove you wrong.

He runs a business - mainly to EA's. He never tells buyers to use his contacts. He offers them if you can't find one yourself or if you trust that his will be higher quality.

What advice has proven to be wrong so far? I fully support you exposing issues, mistakes and poor advice, but where is it? If you can't find it then let it go.

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 21:36

KievLoverTwo · 11/01/2024 21:14

Because OP is a first time buyer, and you keep putting them off from watching him. Today you accused people who listen to him of not being sensible, and I wanted OP to get a different view point from yours. Charlatan or not, I've yet to see you back up your distaste of him with any actual facts.

The OP now has a recommendation for Charlie’s site & a non recommendation to balance it - different opinions. Up to them whether they choose to take a look or not but I won’t be silenced about giving my opinion just because you and a small handful of others on Mumsnet react emotionally whenever he is criticised. If he’s that good his deliberately controversial message can surely take a bit of scepticism which I am not alone in expressing.

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 21:40

Apologies again @User7164 I promise that was my last comment on this subject on your thread. I shouldn’t have got dragged into it when it could & should all be debated elsewhere.

Lokkii · 11/01/2024 21:42

Twiglets1 · 11/01/2024 21:09

Look - you’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I think he’s a charlatan preying on vulnerable people who desperately want to believe his message. I don’t bring his name up first on threads but when other people start promoting him, I react. He does what he does for money and a lot of his advice has already been proven to be wrong. That’s my genuine belief whether you agree or not.

Sorry @User7164 your thread got derailed. @KievLoverTwo I don’t know why this couldn’t have been posted on my house prices thread as suggested instead of someone else’s thread where they are trying to get help not get caught up in our longstanding debate re a YouTuber.

I agree that guy's material is not to be trusted. Great that some get value from his opinions, crack on. But just be aware he's making money.

Don't know why @Twiglets1 is trying to be silenced here, can't help but see some mansplaining going on.

XVGN · 11/01/2024 21:49

Lokkii · 11/01/2024 21:42

I agree that guy's material is not to be trusted. Great that some get value from his opinions, crack on. But just be aware he's making money.

Don't know why @Twiglets1 is trying to be silenced here, can't help but see some mansplaining going on.

She's not trying to be silenced. We welcome constructive advice. She's just making loads of unsubstantiated claims - some of which are a little close to the edge.

Anyway Lokkii. You can see my questions above. Why don't you have a go? I won't hold my breath.

rainingsnoring · 11/01/2024 21:52

User7164 · 11/01/2024 20:12

Update - EA went back to seller with 400K and called us within a few minutes saying their lowest line would be 430. We told them we would mull it over but 400 was really our budget, received another call a couple hours later asking if we would be interested in going back with 410… so they’re definitely willing to come down. We have told them we are still going to hold out a little longer to think it over, if mortgage rates come down significantly we’ll consider 410. Until then will see if the waiting around urges them to come down to 400 to facilitate a quicker sale.

Well negotiated @User7164. It seems they do want to sell their home and are willing to do a deal. I hope you can agree on a figure that you (and they) are happy with.

Lokkii · 11/01/2024 21:56

We welcome constructive advice

😂

Didn't realise opinions posted on a public forum need to be vetted with your personal prior approval. Or maybe just the ones you don't agree with?

rainingsnoring · 11/01/2024 22:23

Lokkii · 11/01/2024 21:56

We welcome constructive advice

😂

Didn't realise opinions posted on a public forum need to be vetted with your personal prior approval. Or maybe just the ones you don't agree with?

So neither you nor the other poster can actually answer in what way he is 'preying on people', why he is 'a charlatan' and what these things are that he has said which are 'proven to be wrong'. If you don't rate his advice/ dislike him that's fair enough, but why spend so much time following him that you allegedly know what he has said? It's a bit of a strange way to behave.
So what if he makes money from his channel/ business? That's normal. Do you think any of the other people giving forecasts/ advice are doing it for free? Where is the criticism of them? I can tell you why he gets the criticism and not them. It's because a lot of people, especially estate agents, landlords and others with skin in the game don't want to be told that the market is falling. It upsets them and they lash out.
I understand that he is a marmite character but it's unfair to tell other posters, particularly FTB so as the OP not to look at his videos, etc because he does give a lot of very useful advice.

KievLoverTwo · 12/01/2024 00:15

Lokkii · 11/01/2024 21:42

I agree that guy's material is not to be trusted. Great that some get value from his opinions, crack on. But just be aware he's making money.

Don't know why @Twiglets1 is trying to be silenced here, can't help but see some mansplaining going on.

Don't know why @Twiglets1 is trying to be silenced here, can't help but see some mansplaining going on.

I am sorry if you perceived my post to be mansplaining. I can understand how that would be an easy conclusion to come to if you have experience in house buying, but it's really not if you are a FTB. Buying a house is an absolute minefield, the OP is a FTB, and my reason for explaining in such detail is that NOBODY EVER FUCKING TEACHES YOU THIS SHIT.

Hence, I explained the ins and outs to both the OP and future readers.

Perhaps you had great parents who did educate you. Good for you. I had: you are 16, time for you to rent a place and leave home.

sep135 · 13/01/2024 07:26

We have told them we are still going to hold out a little longer to think it over, if mortgage rates come down significantly we’ll consider 410.

It's a good approach given that interest rates are currently forecast to start dropping in a few months, depending on the inflation numbers. I believe five year fixes fell below 4% for the first time in a while last week, which backs this up.

Twiglets1 · 13/01/2024 07:33

I’ve read that the BoE base rate could begin to fall as early as February 1st but if not then, probably at the next BoE meeting. However, the first fall is likely to be a small one from 5.25 to 5%.

@KievLoverTwo I’ve replied on the house prices thread.

Teacherprebaby · 13/01/2024 07:39

Of course it's relevant! Estate agents give a valuation, the sellers don't have to go with the valuation. I'm currently selling and buying, estate agents ask me what I think houses are worth all the time as I have seen 20+ houses of similar value and spec on a 2 week period in the same neighborhood. I can clearly see which are over priced and under priced which does happen (priced to sell not negotiable).

I would 100% go in at an approx price, don't give a concrete offer then you can get a feel on whether they think your approximation is too low. State the work that you would need to do to the house as the reason for a lower offer. It's been on for 5 months for a reason.

Teacherprebaby · 13/01/2024 07:40

Many under 5 already.

Teacherprebaby · 13/01/2024 07:44

Are people who post on here normally such dicks? Do they come on to argue? It's not nice to come on to read a thread and then have to scroll through bullshit from clearly unhappy people, really brings down the vibe. Maybe there should be a bitchymumsnet.com

Twiglets1 · 13/01/2024 07:49

Teacherprebaby · 13/01/2024 07:40

Many under 5 already.

Many fixed rate mortgages are under 5% already but I was talking about the Bank of England base rate which is predicted to fall from 5.25% to 5% shortly.

Teacherprebaby · 13/01/2024 07:53

You are correct! Yes, apologies, good news hopefully. I'm currently trying to sell my apartment and then move in with partner (both selling to buy together), just wonder if we should wait a little if this is due to happen soon.

Soontobe60 · 13/01/2024 08:01

User7164 · 09/01/2024 16:11

@KievLoverTwo just used this tool, no info anywhere on official valuations of the house but based on the latest selling price it says it’s now valued around £414K hmm…

We moved house in 2016. The house we sold for £155k has just been sold again for £250k with no work having been done to it apart from decorating. I just used that tool and it said it’s worth £220K.