AIBU or builder (quote)?

[Golaz]

So we got a builder out to quote for some of the structural changes we want to make to our house and he’s asked for £23,500 just to essentially knock down two (load bearing ) walls and install some steel beams reinforcement. We already have the structural engineer plans. AIBU or is this bonkers??? He also wants 10k to install an under the stairs toilet and sink (albeit it does involve moving some electrics).

Option 1 – internal alteration to ground floor based on supplied Structurer drawings.

• Removal of load bearing internal wall – kitchen – based on Supplied Structurer Drawings.
• Supply and install new supporting beam to new opening.
• Removal of load bearing wall – living room - based on Supplied Structurer Drawings.
• Supply and install new supporting beam to new opening.
• Make wall and ceiling good around new openings.
• To do the above including labour and materials for 19500+VAT.

I’m in the midlands. Labourers charge about £180 a day now. Skilled trades charge much much more.

Im in the midlands too and the trades i know dont get that.

I'm having very similar work done. Two load bearing walls k ocked down and two separate steels put in, make good to a plaster finish.

quote was for 2.5k materials 3.2k labour. 4 days work.

£25k seems astronomical...but how big are the walls that are being knocked down ? perhaps it is on a very different scale
.

For reference my walls are 4m and 2.5m.

I had some building work done and it was a bit insane, the prices.

I just got 3 quotes if I could - it was hard even getting people to quote - and looked at their reputation and professionalism. And just paid it.

The most expensive were not always the best, but the cheapest were not worth it at all.

It really just is what it is.

That seems way too pricey for me unless there are a lot of hidden things needing doing. The cost of the steels will be about a grand, maybe a bit more. So the rest of that is labour. For the pros it’s a few days work to take out a load bearing wall, so I can only assume yours isn’t a straight forward job, or they just don’t want the work.

So he’s asking for 19500 not 23500 for starters as the VAT isn’t for him.

Its reasonable. You might get it cheaper but be careful, the industry is not regulated and you could end up in a real pickle!

The cost of the loo is insane. I’ve just had a very small bathroom done for £4500, I bought all the white goods online, from a great company, which saved a fortune.

How do you mean it’s only 300£ per day? Even if the materials cost a few thousand , at that price the work would need to take 50-60 days to make up that price! Surely it’s a job that’s likely to take a week at most?

thank you!! This is more the ballpark I was expecting , adding a few thousand for contingency to be conservative, I thought we were looking at 10k max! My walls aren’t even that long. More like 3 meters and 2 meters. One is already partially cut away. One of the walls is very thick however. There is a radiator along one wall, but I’m not clear the quote even includes moving that so much as just stripping it out?

Costs are insane at the moment. I used to renovate houses and sell them, but it’s impossible under these conditions. We’re currently having some work done on our roof. They’re removing the tiles, replacing the lead flashing and reinstating the original tiles on less than 1/4 of the whole roof. We got tonnes of quotes and the cheapest was 10 grand!!! We’ve got no choice but to cough up because the roof is leaking badly. My advice is to hold off on any non-essential work until things calm down. I’d eat my own foot before I’d spend 10K on a downstairs loo!

No I mean that a builder who is below the vat threshold is earning less than £300 a day which is extremely low for a builder.

So most builders aren't below the vat threshold and if they're not charging you vat its because they're on the fiddle.

Ahh right yes I see what you mean. That makes sense

I suspect that builder doesn't actually want the job, but will do it only if you pay through the nose.... Common tactic.

I work in build projects and costs since about 2019/early 2020 have gone up around 36% so probably not totally unreasonable if you look pre covid/war prices I don’t think unreasonable. Get min 3 quotes

Agree with @DeepSownSeeds. Find a non VAT registered builder (they will probably ask you to buy your materials directly from the supplier) and you’ll instantly shave 20% off that quote and possibly more if they’ve added anything on to the materials cost.

We have just bought two load bearing steels (unsure of the size but they’re so we can have walls knocked out too) and paid £500 each for the steel and our builder is £230 a day not VAT reg.

Hubby is a plumber by trade and says £10k for small bathroom is extortionate. I ordered an entire new suite for our en-suite from Tippers builders merchant yesterday (not sure if they’re just a local business?) and it was less than £700 for a mid range toilet, basin with vanity unit, shower tray and screen plus other bits.

Definitely have a shop around. Some trades do take advantage of people who aren’t familiar with materials prices so always ask to buy these directly from the merchant.

I think the cost sounds reasonable for forming two structural openings if it includes everything to get you back to a completed home - adjusting skirtings, making good the floor, redecoration etc. Remember that builders costs are not just labour and materials, but also cost of tools and equipment, insurance, vehicles, waste removal, cost of time spent quoting and other admin etc.

On VAT you will only save 20% on the labour and overheads costs if you employ a builder who is not VAT registered and buy all the materials - you will still pay VAT on materials.

If a builder is not VAT registered they are likely to be a one person outfit. It is not a one person job - to get the existing propped, the opening made and the new steels in - I bet it is at least a 3 week job with at least 2 people most of the time.

Question how much experience they have, and remember you are asking them to do structural work on your home and the consequences of it going wrong.

Check if they have included for fees for submitting building regulations application and site inspections and that they have appropriate works and public liability insurance. Draw up a contract (look at JCT Homeowners contracts) as it enables you to keep a % of the cost as a retention for a set amount of time after it has finished and get them back if there are any problems - it also means they have 6 years legal liability for defective work.

Definitely get a couple of other quotes to compare, but I would question carefully anyone who can do it for a lot less. There will be a good reason they are cheap and it will not be good for you.

@user701 it depends how many holidays they take my builder used to take holidays every half and full term. His wife was a preschool nursery teacher so no work to mark in the holidays or lessons to plan. They used to go to the same places ie had a small villa complex they visited every May in Spain etc so he was basically away from home for about 10 weeks year! His Uncle is a financial advisor and told him never run anything except your wages through your books, hence why the client pays the subcontractors directly. It wasn't a tax dodge, he was just smart, renovated a shitty house into an incredible house because he knows everyone in the trade so was able to get an amazing house for a lot less than if he had bought it like that.

£85k salary is a lot of money for one person, yes you can choose to live in an expensive area or go somewhere where your money goes further. It also depends when you bought your house, he bought his over 20 years ago when house prices were a lot more reasonable. They never needed childcare or summer clubs because his wife was available.

I am in Yorkshire, these are the rates for my trades that I have had in the last 6 months, plasterer £250 a day labour (doesn't look like he has plastered because his clothing is pristine, the walls are like glass and no mess ever he is incredible) I pay for materials, electrician £240 a day labour, his son is also a spark, works on new builds so easier as first fix with completely empty walls, he gets paid £250 a day, my spark could do the same but he likes the challenge of a completed home, he is incredible at fishing cables in walls.

Being able to find prices isn't like the old days of the yellow pages, you can find loads of businesses online, search for products, find handymen/builders who can put a steel in. We have a local businesses booklet, we always try to get local people in, no national companies. When we had all our windows replaced we went to a company that makes them 2 minutes down the road, no middle man ringing up places getting prices from those manufacturers.

Some costs are insane, but shopping around and not being swayed by brands saves money overall. Lots of builders overprice jobs they don't want. Find smaller businesses, look around at business parks, who is on there? Find smaller bathroom companies not the high street named ones but the local ones who have been around for 20 years.

Builders who are not VAT registered are not likely to be taking a salary of £85k unless they are taking cash in hand and not declaring it. Builders costs are not just salary. If you are running a business that is VAT exempt remember this is based on having a turnover that falls below the VAT threshold £85k. Turnover includes all business costs. AND if you are a business that is not VAT registered you cannot claim back VAT on your expenses and costs - phone, computer, van, petrol, tools so your overheads are higher.

I paid about 2k in total in 2015 for one wall so that sounds ridiculous 😳😂😬

Argh getting such mixed responses here , some saying this sounds reasonable and others saying extortionate. 😂
I’ve written back to the builder and said it was more than we were expecting and asked for a detailed breakdown and could we buy materials separately etc., so we shall see. He’ll probably ghost me now 😂😭. Also trying to get some more quotes.
i do understand those saying that it’s reasonable because of all the making good etc. however, I think at the end of the day I’m just not prepared to pay £23,500 for knocking down two walls and installing some steel beams.
Looking online the steel should be a few 100 pounds. The floor needs to go anyway so can deal with that separately and I’m sure I can find someone to sort out a bit of plaster for a few 100 quid..

We paid £10k in the summer for similar sounding work. We needed 2x steel both about 5m long. Took a couple of weeks.

You also need to remember you need building regs approval, you need fire proofed plasterboard wrapping, you'll need skips for the waste, you need supports for the wall above, you need the machinery to hoist the steels or else a number of strong men etc etc.