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Original poster

INSANE landlord - kicking us out in 5 days - Rights?

67 replies

goodnightspoons · 28/10/2023 21:30

We're in the middle of building works and we're renting temporary accommodation nearby. The landlord has just told us TODAY that they need us out in 5 DAYS TIME, even though our agreement was to move out in two weeks time when our place is safe to inhabit (we have a toddler and our place literally has no floor at the moment, exposed wires, etc.).

We have no formal contract (I know, I know) - it was all done via verbal agreement and messages and we were very clear about our situation and time frame from the start. We only needed to rent for 4-6 weeks total and we've been paying on a weekly basis. We met the previous tenants, who had positive feedback about the landlord, however it's become apparent that the landlord is completely unhinged.

From briefly searching it seems that even without a formal contract we still have rights, I just don't know how we'd enforce them. The landlord is saying they're going to move back into the property* - so what could we actually do to prevent that? I know we can't change the locks, that's illegal, but what would we do if they show up ready to move back in and kick us out?

The building works have been so stressful I'm averaging 4hrs sleep a night for the past month, this is just going to break me. I feel physically sick. I know it's somewhat our fault for not having a contract (though I imagine even if we did this person is so unhinged they would probably ignore it).

Please be kind.

*Context: basically, the landlord decided to put their property on the market just as we moved into it (absolutely NO mention of that in advance). But when they came round and saw how 'messy' the place is (I MEAN WE'RE LITERALLY LIVING OUT OF BOXES - OF COURSE ITS GOING TO BE MESSY!), they decided that they can't market it whilst we're living in it. And for some reason they can't delay the process even by the one week we're asking for. They want us out asap even though they know full well we have no house to move back into. It's completely unreasonable and unhinged.

OP posts:
HappyHolidai · 29/10/2023 10:33

AST is 6 months minimum. Sure the Op does not want that!

SisterMichaelsHabit · 29/10/2023 10:39

purpleleotard2 · 29/10/2023 10:18

You probably have little right to remain in the house and the landlord can ask you to leave at any time.
This is because this is not an Assured Shorthand Tenancy as the property is not your principal abode.
Check out Housing act 1988 section 1,1 b.
Any other landlord may not be willing to let to you as it is for a short period of time.
Airbnb or approach a hotel for a weekly rate.
good luck

This. Sorry OP. It's not your principal abode and you don't have an assured shorthold tenancy. Your rights are very different to those of someone who ticks those boxes, I'm afraid.

Your best bet is to get an air bnb.

Palmasailor · 29/10/2023 10:42

HappyHolidai · 29/10/2023 10:33

AST is 6 months minimum. Sure the Op does not want that!

The landlord is in breach of so much here, that if she gets proper advice he’ll have to pay to get her out.

She has either a regulated tenancy, or an AST.

I’ve forgotten the exact rules on it but it may be regulated under these circumstances because heavy penalties were put in place to avoid exactly this type of crap.

it may just be an AST. Even if it’s this he can’t just terminate.

the LL may have to pay her literally tens of thousands to get rid of her.

whether she’s got the balls to take it on is another matter.

OP should not go moving out. No one can be thrown out of anywhere that’s their “home” without a court order and even then a bailiff has to give notice.

if any fool turns up OP should just call the police.

LauraNorda · 29/10/2023 10:55

Nothing to stop you changing the locks so long as you put the original ones back on when you move out.

Stay put until you are ready to move out or until the landlord has a posession order and bailiffs have turned up.

If the landlord tries to force entry, call the police.

caringcarer · 29/10/2023 11:06

Can you find a travel lodge for a week or 10 days? A lot less hastle.

caringcarer · 29/10/2023 11:07

Palmasailor · 29/10/2023 10:30

You do actually have a formal contract and unless he’s complied with all the rules then he’s in serious trouble.

The absence of a written contract either means it’s an AST or a regulated tenancy, I forget which.

Get a good lawyer fast.

I don't think ison.play as the OP has another property as her main home.

maximist · 29/10/2023 11:11

A friend of a friend bought a house to let out. Soon after she bought it an acquaintance gave her a hard luck story about having nowhere to live, so she said he could stay there for a short time whilst he sorted himself out. He refused to leave, and involved Shelter - it took her several months to get him out. He never paid a penny of rent or paid any bills, but Shelter supported him to stay. So I'd advise ringing Shelter in the morning and getting their advise.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 29/10/2023 11:14

Tenants can change locks as long as they return the originals when they leave.

it’s normally easy to change the barrel of a lock, depending on the lock type

Palmasailor · 29/10/2023 11:20

caringcarer · 29/10/2023 11:07

I don't think ison.play as the OP has another property as her main home.

Show quote history

It will depend on technicalities like is she paying the bills here etc.

Thats why she needs advice. On balance the system will err in her favour, and be very expensive for the LL to argue.

NonmagicMike · 29/10/2023 11:31

AnotherEmma · 29/10/2023 09:47

You (and others) told OP to get an Airbnb for 2 weeks, which is unnecessary.

Tenants can't be forced to leave with one week's notice, the landlord has to follow the correct eviction procedure.

Which is what I said in my post. I’ve also then stated the option I would take in that if the landlord is a bit of a scumbag, I wouldn’t want to live somewhere with the threat of ‘the lads’ turning up anytime of the day to make my life hell for two weeks. I would want to be out of there for my sanity, therefore I’d want an air b&b or something like that to stay in to extract myself from the situation. I would therefore voluntarily move out if I was compensated for doing so. I literally posted:

‘The fact that you are paying rent and have a verbal agreement means you are protected by law and the landlord will need to go through all the usual proceedings to get you evicted which will take a year plus.’

So again, what is it in your view that is such poor advice? Don’t want to do an air bnb, take option 2 from my post and stay put.

Original poster
goodnightspoons · 30/10/2023 10:35

Thanks so much everyone for your advice - specially re Shelter. I rung them this morning and they were SO helpful. Basically, although we don't have a contract and our arrangement is unusual, it has all the markers on an Assured Short Hold Tenancy, so we have eviction rights and exclusive possession rights.
I've conveyed this in full to the landlord so hopefully they will back down, but we're coming up with a plan B if not. (we are actually within our rights to change the locks - which I didn't know - as long as we change them back at the end)
I'll post again with full details when I have time - it was v helpful! x

OP posts:
Pinkpinkpink15 · 30/10/2023 10:42

Well your update is interesting, I can't wait to see what the LL replies.

it's all so stressful with a new house & toddler anyway, I'd have just booked an airBnB.

id be on the builders back to make sure yours is completed on time!

Original poster
goodnightspoons · 30/10/2023 10:44

Also, I rather avoid de-camping to an Airbnb - as we're in London, the cost for the extra 9 days is £1,500 more than what we'd be paying if we stay put. I need to be close to our home so I can keep an eye on the works, which are at a critical stage (the place we're renting is on the same road). We're also just SO exhausted I can't face moving again / would have to take time off work, etc. But I do want to have a plan B in place in case we have to leave if they show up.
The landlord mentioned from the start that they have long covid, and their brain is basically not working (obviously!) - they haven't been aggressive or violent - so I do hope they will just back down.

OP posts:
scrimpton · 30/10/2023 10:55

I'd tell the landlord that this is bang out of order, against what you agreed and that he will have to wait or serve you 28 days notice to evict as the legislation says.

AnotherEmma · 30/10/2023 12:17

goodnightspoons · 30/10/2023 10:35

Thanks so much everyone for your advice - specially re Shelter. I rung them this morning and they were SO helpful. Basically, although we don't have a contract and our arrangement is unusual, it has all the markers on an Assured Short Hold Tenancy, so we have eviction rights and exclusive possession rights.
I've conveyed this in full to the landlord so hopefully they will back down, but we're coming up with a plan B if not. (we are actually within our rights to change the locks - which I didn't know - as long as we change them back at the end)
I'll post again with full details when I have time - it was v helpful! x

Great stuff. Glad you called them.
I was pretty sure it was an AST (and not a holiday let) and am glad they have confirmed it.

tribpot · 30/10/2023 13:57

That's really great work from Shelter.

usernamealreadytaken · 30/10/2023 14:13

Stopdropnroll · 28/10/2023 22:59

Even though you don't have a tenancy agreement the fact that monies and keys have changed hands gives you a tenancy.

That said as another member said above, can you move elsewhere for the short period before your house is ready?

Sounds more like a holiday let, which doesn't give you a tenancy. Renting for two weeks or six weeks...

usernamealreadytaken · 30/10/2023 14:17

AnotherEmma · 29/10/2023 09:47

You (and others) told OP to get an Airbnb for 2 weeks, which is unnecessary.

Tenants can't be forced to leave with one week's notice, the landlord has to follow the correct eviction procedure.

OP originally told LL they would need the property for 4 to 6 weeks, has been there 4 weeks and asked to leave at 5 weeks - what is the correct eviction procedure for somebody who doesn't have a contract and has been asked to leave after the period they asked to rent for?

Palmasailor · 30/10/2023 21:29

goodnightspoons · 30/10/2023 10:35

Thanks so much everyone for your advice - specially re Shelter. I rung them this morning and they were SO helpful. Basically, although we don't have a contract and our arrangement is unusual, it has all the markers on an Assured Short Hold Tenancy, so we have eviction rights and exclusive possession rights.
I've conveyed this in full to the landlord so hopefully they will back down, but we're coming up with a plan B if not. (we are actually within our rights to change the locks - which I didn't know - as long as we change them back at the end)
I'll post again with full details when I have time - it was v helpful! x

Yes I thought so.

taking that one step further your LL has to pay you off to cut it short.

ask him to make you an offer, failing which you’re planning on staying.

Original poster
goodnightspoons · 31/10/2023 13:20

It's been 3 days and all I've heard from the landlord is that they're going to get back to me when they've spoken with their lawyer... I can't see what the lawyer is going to do. We have decided to stay put, and to pay the rent on a daily basis until we're out. We've secured the front door and installing a motion sensor alarm for night time.

I spoke with the estate agents and let them know the situation, and that we're not intending to leave until we're ready, so they'll have to re-arrange the pictures/viewings.

Shelter were v helpful, here are the main points they made -

  • Our agreement is unusual but it would still be classed as an Assured Short Hold Tenancy. We are not lodgers as the landlord's primary residence is elsewhere. (even if we were lodgers the minimum notice period is 4 weeks)
  • You don't have to have a formal contract - it's the intention that matters, and the fact that rent has been paid and keys received.
  • As we said we'd be there 4-6 weeks but made it clear that our dates may shift due to the nature of the building works the agreement is treated as a 'periodic tenancy for an indefinite period'. We don't need to exit by 6 weeks.
  • We have exclusive possession rights, so the landlord / estate agents would need our consent to enter the property. Entering without our consent would be treated as breaking and entering.
  • There are two ways to remove us - 1) come to a mutual agreement on an exit date. 2) serve section 2 or section 8 notice, however this can't be served in the first 4 months.
  • The landlord is in breach of their responsibilities, so they may not even be able to serve the above notices, even after 4 months (responsibilities: sending paperwork showing the deposit is in a government protected scheme within 30 days of receiving it / sending gas safety certificate, etc - they have not done either of these things)
  • As they are in breach of their responsibilities we could actually be entitled to compensation up to 3 x the deposit amount
  • If the landlord were to try to gain entry without our consent we could phone the police (the fact that all our belongings are at the property is enough proof that we live here, as well as having keys, and showing rent has been paid of course), or call the council (there are sometimes 'tenancy relation officers')
  • We could legally change the locks if we'd like, as long as we return them to the original locks when we leave.
OP posts:
Original poster
goodnightspoons · 31/10/2023 13:23

Some more context, for humour (I have to laugh or I'll never get through this):
Whilst we've been staying here the landlord insisted on having the property painted (ignoring the fact that the whole reason we moved out of our home... with a toddler... was to escape disruption)... They gradually revealed that they were urgently putting it on the market, and asked us to tidy the place up and arrange the picture taking with the agents (!). When we pushed back they decided it would be a good idea to fly over (they live in a different country) and stay in the flat with us to 'help' tidy it up. But having arrived they were shocked at how much of our belongings are here and how untidy it is. It sounds unbelievably naive of us to arrive at this situation, but it all happened so gradually, and we were on friendly terms so we were happy to help out to begin with. I suspect they are under huge financial pressure (ie repossession), with a little dementia added into the mix. I feel bad for them in a way, but it's not our problem!
It's been a life lesson, to say the least.

OP posts:
TeenagersAngst · 31/10/2023 13:32

If it's an implied tenancy, doesn't that also mean that you can't stop paying rent within the fixed period (assume 6 months as default since there's no written contract)? Or does Shelter say that it's ok for you to leave whenever you like?

Original poster
goodnightspoons · 31/10/2023 13:55

It's ok for us to leave and stop paying once we've left - we agreed around 4-6 weeks with possibility to extend as needed for the building work to be completed (the building works is not complicated / no risk of massive overrun). If we did have a longer contract then yes we'd need to give 28 days notice to quit.

OP posts:
YetMoreNewBeginnings · 31/10/2023 14:05

You need to double check that information.

That you have an assumed tenancy for the landlord to make you leave, but you can leave and stop paying rent whenever without giving notice doesn't sound right.

Shelter are not infallible.

Boomboomboomboom · 31/10/2023 14:23

I'm not convinced Shelter has it right here.

I think it's more likely a court would find you occupied as excluded licensees under an agreement which was a "temporary expedient" thus not technically "let as a dwelling", not a tenancy and not protected by the Protection From Eviction Act 1977 requiring only reasonable notice from the landlord to terminate (see the case of R (N) v Lewisham which is about temporary accommodation albeit in the context of local housing authorities and homeless legislation).

However if you agreed you'd be able to occupy for a fixed term, that is what you both contractually agreed to and you cannot be forced to vacate early.

Hopefully your communication with the agent has put off the landlord from trying to evict though and you'll never need to go to court!

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