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Unique house situation - need advice

49 replies

alliwantforchristmasis50k · 27/09/2023 09:52

Hi all, have a bit of a unique property buying question that is impossible to search for online and get advice for...wondering if there is any advice that can be given here.

Does require a lot of backstory....

We rent the end house of a terrace in a small village, have been renting through an agency for about 3 years and very happy although house needs some work and landlord is a bit slow to get things fixed. Apart from that we are left to our own devices and are hardly bothered. (We have put up a lot of frames on walls (normally a no no when renting) and have totally sorted the garden at our own expense and put in a cat flap, had an inspection earlier in the year and they were not fussed by any of it).

Our next door neighbour (“Margaret”) is the elderly mother of one of my wife's (“Jane”) best friends (“Anne”), which we only found out when we moved in but turned out to be a pleasant surprise and we started hanging out a lot more. Over covid my other half walked her dog a lot and checked in on her all the time, and we’ve always done jobs for her and checking in on her at Annes request. Several months ago Margaret had a fall and went into hospital, turns out she had some health issues and early onset dementia, so she is now going into a home, moving from temporary to permanent care home sometime soon from what I remember. At some point since then the issue of selling the house was raised and after some informal chars the premise was put forward that they could sell to us, cutting out estate agents etc and allowing us to buy our first house. They are aware we are not ready to buy straight away and do not have a full deposit ready to go, so we would live there for 6-12 months practically rent free in order to save a deposit. We have jumped at it as we are long term renters and this would be a great chance to own our first house.

So...going into bullet points to try and explain pros and cons...

Jane is 6 months pregnant expecting baby at end of December. We have said we want to move in by end of November so we are settled for when the baby is born.

House needs a lot of work, ie half the rooms painting, lots of fixtures changing, general maintenance as hasn’t been updated since later 90’s probably, but nothing structural as far as we know. We will be paying for all this ourselves. We have already started painting one room, and Anne and her brothers are planning a house clearance for about a fortnight's time.

Living practically rent free will allow us to save so much money especially as Jane will be on maternity probably for 9 months at least.

Margaret does not need to money from the house straight away as she has savings to pay for care home, but we have not asked how long they will last etc as we don’t think its our business.

What is worrying us....

What are our legal rights if we move in basically under the radar? We are assuming we will sign some form of contract with them at some point but we have not really sorted anything out yet. We are assuming we will have to tell council, water/gas/internet companies to get amenities switched on, but who do we need to legally tell and who do we not need to inform? If someone finds out can we get evicted down the line?

There are two older (late 40’s/early 50’s) brothers involved both of whom are not local (one in London, one in USA) who are supposed to be sorting evaluations etc as sister has sorted mum out in care home, so us being less involved. They have been pretty hands off so far and we’ve had little to no contact with them so far apart from through sister as mediator (they are not the most amicable family, and there is not much sentiment attached to the house in general, Anne in particular is not very emotionally close to Margaret for lots of reasons we won’t get into!) Is this a red flag? We will be seeing them all in a couple of weeks when they are here to do the house clearance so hopefully that will clear some stuff up.

Also to point out, these are not just mates we've met down the pub and trying to get a good deal...Anne and Jane go back years and years/frequent dog walking and care packages through covid/Jane basically rescued mum from dying alone in her own house and called ambulance/we both went to Anne's wedding a few months ago/we rehomed Margarets dog with my sister instead of putting her in a kennel/ we went to mums 80th bday in care home with family where we were the witnesses to them doing power of attorney/mum is aware that selling to us is something likely to happen although with dementia not sure how much she is aware. Basically we do have a fairly good relationship and they can see that we have been involved with her life and are not trying to take the piss.

We are concerned they may have an unrealistic valuation in mind, as brother living in London may have a skewed view of house prices, although we will wait for the valuation. We also don't think we can get a mortgage until Jane finishes maternity? She is speaking to an adviser this week I think to learn more about it.

The last conversation we had was along the lines of “It’ll be fine you can move in whenever you want and we’ll sort all the detail out down the line”, which on one hand is great but has started getting us nervous that we don’t have actually any details written down at all, only verbal agreements.
Another point is that my mum has said she will give us up to 30k to put towards deposit, which is massive help but how will that affect things?

So in conclusion…

What does everyone think? Should we go for it and not worry?? Should we back out now and keep renting?? We can literally say “sorry we’ve realised this doesn’t work for us” at any point and stay in our rented home which we have very much made our own. But this is such a great opportunity everyone we have mentioned it to says we should go for it!

Happy to answer any questions! Thanks in advance!

OP posts:
Geneticsbunny · 27/09/2023 10:01

I think it would be sensible to get it valued before you do any renovations, otherwise you will be paying extra on the value of the house for work you have done?

I was also going to advise doing some sort of rental agreement, even if you have a very small rent like £10 a month, however I am guessing the house wouldn't pass the electrical and safety checks and therefore wouldn't be rentable at the moment?

I know they are friends but it is better for everyone if everything is written down and ticked off in the correct legal way in case something unexpected happens. It will protect all of you and your friendship.

Octavia64 · 27/09/2023 10:04

Legally, the house belongs to Margaret.

If a relative has power of attorney for Margaret then they may be able to legally make decisions on Margaret's behalf.

If nobody has power of attorney the situation is likely to be extremely tricky - if Margaret is so ill that she is deemed to have "lost capacity" - ie the courts think she can't make her own decisions any more - then the process of appointing someone to make those decisions is long and complicated.

In either case, as there are multiple children of Margaret the chance of them disagreeing on the price for the house sale is very likely, and the chance of it dragging on and on while they bicker about estate agents valuations (especially in this market) is very very high.

Personally I'd run a fucking mile.

You run the risk of one of Margaret's children disagreeing with you living there and objecting to what you have done with the house. As you don't own it, and don't have a contract with the person who owns it I wouldn't be doing anything to the house, painting or otherwise until you know who owns it and get a contract in writing.

This could get very very expensively messy.

Octavia64 · 27/09/2023 10:08

Addendum:

If you move in under the radar with no contract you have no legal rights at all and in fact if you reduce the value of the house Margaret or the care home in Margaret's behalf could take court action against you to recover the money they have lost.

Do NOT do this until you get something in writing, preferably either Margaret or if a relative holds power of attorney with them.

Quartz2208 · 27/09/2023 10:08

You need to get this all done and dusted legally now and if you can’t walk away.

the amount it is worth now compared with if you put the money and how would it be shown you put the money in.

what gapoens if Margaret dies and then goes through probate etc.

personally let them house clear and then paint it and offsetting against a tenancy agreement, get a tenancy agreement and pay some rent.

do nothing to the changes to the fixtures until it is yours, if you cannot afford to buy it do T waste money changing fixtures. Save as much as you can

Mydustymonstera · 27/09/2023 10:13

If you are not paying rent to Margaret you could fall foul of deprivation of assets rules.

might be better to rent it formally and get the sale valuation done now before you do the work. Then have some kind of agreement written down about you starting the work before you own it but it still being sold at this current valuation. With a lawyer who knows about deprivation of assets legislation.

NewFriendlyLadybird · 27/09/2023 10:21

Totally agree with @Octavia64. Don’t do a thing until you know that someone is operating with LPA.

Get a proper house valuation and agree a purchase price. If only one of the siblings has LPA that might be straightforward. If they all do it might be more of a problem.

Don’t make assumptions about when you might be able to get a mortgage. Find out now exactly where you stand.

And if you decide to go for the rental at peppercorn rates until you are ready to buy, for goodness’ sake get it all absolutely tied down in a watertight contract. You don’t want anyone to renege on an informal deal. That will probably cost about as much as EA fees, only you’d be the ones paying, so you ought to factor that into your decision.

I don’t know, but it might be worth investigating whether you could exchange contracts first, then do an assured short hold tenancy for x months at a nominal rent, then complete after that. I’m sure there are lawyers on here who could advise.

alliwantforchristmasis50k · 27/09/2023 10:27

Thanks for the comments

Yes the London brother has the LPA, we were witnesses to it being signed.

We are only painting one room for now, and will definitely not be doing any work until later on when details have been settled. We are seeing them all next week so hopefully we'll have time to all sit down and talk about it.

Assuming there are no squabbles between siblings about price, and we sign a contract between us agreeing price soon, are there any other pitfalls?

OP posts:
Darkbountyismissing · 27/09/2023 10:40

I can see this having the potential to go badly wrong. Please seek proper advise ..but I hope it happens as I can see it will benefit all parties

Twiglets1 · 27/09/2023 10:45

I think you should get proper legal advice on this through a solicitor or possibly Citizens Advice Bureau - it sounds like it could be great or a legal nightmare if anything goes wrong.

WoolyMammoth55 · 27/09/2023 10:50

OP, I agree with previous posters that you want to get some sort of agreement in place before you leave your rented home.

IANAL but at a minimum I'd think it would need to specify who has POA for Margaret, that this person agrees to sell you the house, that they agree to sell it to you at x price on x date, and that until then you have the legal right to occupy it for a peppercorn rent. It would need to specify who is responsible for insurances, utility payments, property maintenance and council tax, etc.

It's a complicated situation legally and until there's some written agreement that everyone involved has signed off, you and your pregnant wife are very vulnerable.

Don't get dragged into a situation where you might end up homeless and out of pocket - get clarity first, in writing, about where you stand.

Best of luck for it all working out briliantly.

KievLoverTwo · 27/09/2023 10:56

Biggest risk I can think of not already mentioned here is that they get spooked by drastic house price falls getting mentioned in the press and want to sell it before you have your full deposit ready.

RedAndWhiteCarnations · 27/09/2023 10:57

Go and see a Solicitor to review all the pitfalls. I personally wouldn’t sign anything until your lawyer has reviewed it.

I suspect this is an offer coming from a really good place but it has the potential to backlash badly on you.

TwilightDreams · 27/09/2023 10:58

You need professional legal advice. Being the witness to the LPA has complicated your situation as you'll benefit financially from the proposed deal.

RedAndWhiteCarnations · 27/09/2023 10:59

KievLoverTwo · 27/09/2023 10:56

Biggest risk I can think of not already mentioned here is that they get spooked by drastic house price falls getting mentioned in the press and want to sell it before you have your full deposit ready.

Or you agree on a price and prices fall down massively in the interim.
Will you be happy to pay let’s say £150k for a house that is only valued at £100k at market price because you’ve agreed the amount 6 months before?

WoolyMammoth55 · 27/09/2023 11:04

I think the biggest risk is that something significant happens while you are 'renting' but before you've bought - roof blows off, electrical fire, pipe bursts - and there's no clarity on who is responsible for the building repairs/maintenance in that limbo period...

But I think you would also want to get a trustworthy electrician and heating engineer over before you sign the agreement, to understand the costs involved to get electrics and heating up to current regs. If nothing has been touched decoratively for 30 years then the place may need a full re-wire, which is in the region of £5,000, and all new boiler and radiators, another £4-5K - considerably more than a coat of paint and new carpets.

Octavia64 · 27/09/2023 11:06

Another possibility is that you agree a price, sign contracts etc and then Margaret dies before you actually buy the house,

As your contract is with Margaret (signed on her behalf by the London brother with LPA) I would imagine that if she is dead the contract no longer holds.

I am not a lawyer and you should absolutely get proper legal advice on what happens in this situation.

(Average length of stay in care homes is not long.)

Sorry to be all doom and gloom. This could go really well, it just has the potential to go pear shaped.

DepartureLounge · 27/09/2023 12:22

So many red flags. Personally I'd be worried that you'd spend time and money making the place nice in time for your baby to arrive and then they end up deciding it's so nice they'd like to sell it to someone else for more than you can afford, but there are lots of other risks too, as you and pp say, like Margaret dying sooner rather than later, or Margaret's savings running out and the asset having to be realised. That last one emphatically is your business since it has the potential to send your plans tits up and the fact that you "don't like to ask" is a pretty bad sign given how utterly and thoroughly you need to thrash the details of this arrangement out before going ahead with it. Please don't underestimate the potential for a massive falling out of friends and relatives where money is involved. If the siblings disagree about sales price, who is reponsible for what, when and whether and to whom it should be sold, etc etc, you could well end up out in the cold with a newborn - literally. I know you think your friendship is bulletproof, but it really isn't, no one's is.

My advice is to try and buy it now by whatever means necessary. But if you really, really can't, talk through every detail, every possibility, every potential pitfall or eventuality, and put it all in writing with all three of them before moving in, and ideally down tools and brushes right now until that's done. "We can sort it out down the line" - no, no, no, no, no. The only way you can ringfence and preserve your friendship in situations like this is to be completely businesslike about the financial/legal stuff, so that you can separate the two entirely.

Ceebeegee · 27/09/2023 12:36

I agree with the above posters and proceed with extreme caution.

It's not a pleasant reality, but a reality all the same - money can make people do unexpected things. Think of the number of threads you see on MN about inheritance squabbles etc, and families being ripped apart because they can't agree on something.
All is takes is for one of the siblings see their inheritance whittling away (using savings to pay for care for instance, might prompt a sibling to insist they rent or sell the house at the best price they can get), and they will put a stop to it.

At the very least , hold off moving forward until a valuation is done. Have you got a mortgage advisor / do you know if you can borrow the amount needed?

LindaDawn · 27/09/2023 12:54

Can you not stay in your rented house and then buy next door house when you have a mortgage arranged and know the price of the house and if you can afford it. I grant that you would not get the rent free but think this way woukd be better.

alliwantforchristmasis50k · 27/09/2023 13:22

These are all good comments thank you! Even though we have started a bit of decorating we are not going to jump into anything we are not 100% confident with, so you have given me a list of things to consider over the next few weeks. I may update this thread periodically if I need any more help!

OP posts:
Twiglets1 · 27/09/2023 13:24

Yes please do @alliwantforchristmasis50k

CHRIS003 · 27/09/2023 13:25

Couldn't you ask the family to set up some kind of rolling tenancy agreement.
Or short tenancy agreement and you pay a small rent each month.

Sisterpita · 27/09/2023 13:58

@alliwantforchristmasis50k you need independent legal advice asap as this situation is fraught with risks for both parties.

The bare minimum is a legal agreement to sell at x price by (date) with a right to occupy as tenants from (date) to (date). It needs to cover what happens if you don’t buy e.g. do you get costs back for decorating, improvements etc.

SirVixofVixHall · 27/09/2023 14:09

The decorating seems a red herring. If you aren’t paying rent then surely decorating is the least you can do to pay back the favour .
The main problem seems to be a change in value between you getting the valuation and you buying. Second to that the house needing to be sold before you are ready.
I think you need a peppercorn rent agreement in writing, with decorating etc specified as your payback for living in the space.
Then get the house valued when you are ready to buy. Decorating won’t add to the value, unless you are doing something structural it doesn’t make much difference as most people repaint anyway.

JustWimpy · 27/09/2023 16:43

It sounds very risky for the family involved. You could move in and establish yourselves there but then find you can't get a mortgage. The worry for them is that they could be receiving no rent but find it difficult to remove you. Or you could take years to save the deposit while they need the money for Margaret's care.

Have you applied for the mortgage now and been refused because even with the gift of £30k, you aren't close to the deposit amount?

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