What to do? Survey uncovered chimney masonry removed without proper support.

[Moo2019]

Looking for some advice.
We are in the process of buying a 1930s terraced house and had a survey on it. Generally things were pretty good but it did say:

‘Chimney masonry in the former dining room, rear bedroom and part within the roof space area has been removed and the method of support is inadequate. There is the potential for brickwork to collapse without warning. This requires immediate attention and contractors should be requested to provide quotations for this work.’

We are now in a bit of a back and forth with the current owners who are saying we can get (and pay for) a structural engineer and builder to get quotes and drawings and then pay for the work before exchange. Obviously we don’t want to do this because it’s not our house.

Therefore, we were thinking of trying to negotiate a reduction in price and just deal with the work when we move in.

My question is, has anyone had this sort of thing done and would you be able to tell me a rough idea of what it cost?

I’ve been reassured it’s not a big job, but am I being naive?

I'll preface my opinion by saying that I've got no structural engineering or surveying qualifications or knowledge whatsoever, but I have been buying, selling and renovating houses for about 35 years now, for whatever that's worth. I'm pretty game when it comes to houses that need work, but this sounds to me like the kind of house you walk - or even run - away from. You say the survey is OK but... But this is a pretty big but!! In my understanding, if the chimney masonry has been removed, then the house is basically unsupported in the same way as if a supporting wall had been removed without an RSJ being put in. I think this is for the vendors to sort out, and not to put the house back on the market until they've made it structurally sound.

But I may be completely wrong, and for sure it's not what you'll be wanting to hear, so perhaps someone will come along shortly with a more informed opinion and perhaps it will be different. I think it would be a no no for me though.

Just to add that even if you managed to negotiate a stonking reduction in price (and it doesn't sound like you will if the vendor's not taking responsibility) and you're happy to take on the risk of buying it without the work done, I wonder if you'd struggle to insure it or to get a claim honoured in the event of some kind of structural collapse now that you've effectively been forewarned by the surveyor.

I think this work would require an RSJ to be installed under the unsupported brick stack. Might take about a week and cost roughly £3000 or so. In your situation though I would insist the sellers undertake this work and have it signed off by Building Control (which would be necessary)

If it's on a shared wall with the neighbours you would also need to secure a party wall agreement which could run into thousands and cause a delay of several weeks.

Whatever you decide, do not have any work done before you exchange as it's not your house; you could pay to do the work and then the vendor may decide not to sell!

Run away OP. If they've done something as major as this then god knows what else you'll uncover. I say this as someone who purchased a house from an amateur electrician

the current owners who are saying we can get (and pay for) a structural engineer and builder to get quotes and drawings and then pay for the work before exchange

That to me is a big red flag. No one in their right minds would pay for work before exchange. Plus doing work on older houses often throws up other problems so it might get complicated. I agree with pp, the vendors should pull the house from the market and sort the issue.

I just really don’t want to lose the house, we’ve had previous ones fall through. Im hoping there is some sort of solution. But yes, it is a party wall so it does get complicated

Nope, they make the house safe and THEN you might consider buying it. No way worth the risk. What if the whole lot comes down on you while you're waiting for the work to be done? Also as PP said, what the heck else is underwraps? Nightmare.

And what if you agreed to do and pay for the work before exchange and then something goes wrong or something new shows up and the house becomes unsaleable, and the vendor wants to sue you or something. It just seems like a legal minefield. In fact I think most solicitors would refuse to get involved if you tried to draw up an agreement that covered all eventualities tbh. But to go ahead without that would be madness imo.

Ask a local builder if gallow brackets are allowed by your local council.

They should be cheap enough.

Has your solicitor received the survey?

Because this is something they need to raise with your mortgage provider and the usual response is it must be fixed and signed off by building regs before they will release money. Properties like this are usually cash only.

I’ve bought 2 houses with insufficient support in loft. It was very normal way back when to just use timber to support the removal or partial removal. Often in quite eye wateringly bodged ways. It’s a very common issue.

I’ve never heard of a fix being as cheap as stated above. The last time I did this I paid 12k and that was 2019. I would expect more like 15k now. But it depends on the design, the size of steel, the method of getting steel in.

Mostly party wall agreements are free and easy - if another house is attached to you it is very much in their interests that you fix this!

You need to chat to your solicitor as the decision isn’t yours to make it is the lenders.

This is good advice. I think it will be more expensive too. And yes, of course the lender will have an opinion, good shout.

This is absolutely something critical that the vendor must sort out prior to exchange.

It is not up to you to do so. It’s the vendor’s house and they need to do this work.

Basically the entire chimney could collapse and take the house down with it.
It needs properly addressing.

My advice is do not proceed. The house is structurally unsafe. It might have been ok "for the last 20 years" or whatever, but the process of emptying rooms and removing furniture can trigger collapse. And that means your chimney collapsing from inside the loft downwards - pulling down the roof and ceilings.

I would absolutely run a mile from this one.

It boils my piss that the vendors have got the nerve to say you have to fix it before buying it.

Did you get it for a bargain basement price?

Is it the only house of its type for sale within a fifty mile radius?

I agree with the advice so far, which is not to continue with the purchase.

It could be gallows brackets are allowed, but they come with their own requirements for use, and may not be suitable.
Continuing with this purchase opens up a whole can of worms and the unexpected.
Currently this issue is the vendors, don’t be a sucker and buy his problems off him.

Thank you. So you don’t think it’s a huge red flag as long as we get it sorted @Gribbit987 ?

A decade or so ago a friend put her terraced house on the market and a survey highlighted a concern with the chimney stack. The buyer got their surveyor to investigate next door and the fireplace in the lounge had been removed without adding support. So the whole stack was leaning. This rendered my friend’s house unmortgagable and the neighbour refused to do anything about it. Desperate to move my friend ended up paying to fixing her neighbours stack; no thanks just complaints about the mess and intrusion - if she’d refused I guess it would have been a matter for the courts.
Some people…

As for the OPs situation if they need a mortgage the vendor will have to fix it or game over surely. Or a substantial reduction in price if a cash buyer. And preferably not having to move in until it’s done - as you might imagine it can be a big messy intrusive job just depending.

I think what @Gribbit987 is saying (if I may) is that if your lender thinks it's a huge red flag then it's game over whatever anyone else thinks, and that you therefore need to establish that as a priority.

If you're buying for cash without a mortgage then obviously that's not an issue, but it doesn't mean the work itself might not still be a structural and legal red flag, so you would still need to seek knowledgeable advice on both those fronts.

I would walk away, especially if the repair was likely to involve the neighbours or have affected the party wall in some way.

I would also be concerned that if this work was done by cowboys, what other dodgy more low level stuff might have been done to the place that is not structural.

It's hard to write off the cost of the survey - but this is exactly the stuff you get them for, so you can dodge bullets.

If vendors now knowing about this don't get it fixed I'd walk away. I'd probably send a copy of the report to their EA too.

A mortgage company won't lend until it's fixed and signed off.

The vendor needs to get it mended and signed off before it is sold , you would be an idiot to take this house on as it is even with a reduction .

That was my thought. Very simple and relatively cheap.

To answer your question has anyone had this sort of thing done and would you be able to tell me a rough idea of what it cost?

I have, for reasons too long-winded to explain. I has an RSJ installed to support the chimney stack after the breast had been previously removed in the ground and first floor. It involved two concrete pads, one on the external wall the other on an internal wall. The steel was installed through the roof after some tiles were removed, and scaffolding briefly put up. All completed within a week and it came to £7,500 in 2018, in Kent on a small terraced house.

Work signed-off by Council building control, including in the price.