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Original poster

EPC rating - panic!!

80 replies

SunnyUpNorth · 18/08/2023 17:46

We have just had an offer accepted today on a property. I am usually extremely thorough with things but have been doing alot of research on the property style itself and somehow missed that the EPC rating is F. This has only come to my attention as I forwarded the link to a family member who noticed it.

We are planning to use the property as a holiday let and for our own use initially, with a view to retiring there in the future.

Ive been reading up about EPC regulations etc and all the limitations of the current system today and now feel totally lost. When we found out we had been successful in our bid I actually felt really worried rather than excited.

I’ve read opinions where people think the incoming regulations of all properties having to be C rated can’t possibly be enforced due to the fact that approx 60% of current UK housing stock can never be rated above a D due to not having cavity walls/not having gas central heating/etc. That does make sense.

however I’ve also seen stuff about how mortgages might be denied unless properties are a certain rating, which also seems silly if the mortgage companies therefore had their business cut by the above 60%.

However I am slightly panicking. Some of the things we could do such as installing energy efficient lightbulbs etc. But the bottom line is are we going to be buying a house that we can’t rent out and that will massively fall in value as it may be un-mortgageable??

OP posts:
C4tastrophe · 22/08/2023 12:52

Lots of valid points, but the government won’t let this go.
They promised net zero and with some fiddling they’ll get there.
Why some people are so resilient to insulating their houses and modernization I don’t know.
Implementing the EPC requirements at point of sale would keep the old dears in their polluting houses for longer, and the only impact is reduced value at point of sale.

As for renting, you don’t go to Hertz and they bring out a 1984 Ford Granada do they?
Time to start easing the renters into better housing stock by changing the laws.
Which is what is happening.

Ariela · 22/08/2023 13:01

I'm baffled as to why the EPC is taken as the golden ticket to an energy efficient house.

In the olden days when house hunting one always asked to see the vendor's energy bills, as that was a clear indication of how efficient (or not) a house's running costs were.

WaitingfortheTardis · 22/08/2023 13:08

The problem is that EPCs are just so inaccurate with ridiculous guesses and suggestions. If we are going to impose this sort of nonsense I hope they do something about air conditioning too, which more and more people are having installed and is pretty much unnecessary.

BIossomtoes · 22/08/2023 13:18

Why some people are so resilient to insulating their houses and modernization I don’t know.

They’re not. EPCs are a blunt and inaccurate instrument. If you read the thread you’d see real experience of “assessments”. Houses with newly fitted double glazed windows and doors and state of the art new boilers rated E. Assessors failing to even look at loft insulation. Until the assessment is accepted and credible and reflects reality the ratings will continue to be regarded with scepticism.

BIossomtoes · 22/08/2023 13:19

Accurate - not accepted! 🙄

KievLoverTwo · 22/08/2023 13:23

C4tastrophe · 22/08/2023 12:52

Lots of valid points, but the government won’t let this go.
They promised net zero and with some fiddling they’ll get there.
Why some people are so resilient to insulating their houses and modernization I don’t know.
Implementing the EPC requirements at point of sale would keep the old dears in their polluting houses for longer, and the only impact is reduced value at point of sale.

As for renting, you don’t go to Hertz and they bring out a 1984 Ford Granada do they?
Time to start easing the renters into better housing stock by changing the laws.
Which is what is happening.

It's completely meaningless until the test the actual heating systems and boilers in rentals. Our last house, an E, everything was screwed. Cost wise it cost us more like a G to run. LL's agent claimed it wasn't possible to fix. We couldn't risk eviction by repeatedly complaining, so left. Until section 21s are banned (god knows when, it was meant to be tabled in summer and just never got timetables) tenants will continue to just have to put up and shut up.

Re: resistance. Firstly, obviously it's tricky with older buildings. Secondly, the cost. In a thread a few weeks ago a poster said she had a quote of 115k to replace her windows for wooden double glazed windows in her Victorian listed house in Scotland.

Before she even got to anything else.

How the hell are people supposed to pay for that?

GasPanic · 22/08/2023 14:02

Ariela · 22/08/2023 13:01

I'm baffled as to why the EPC is taken as the golden ticket to an energy efficient house.

In the olden days when house hunting one always asked to see the vendor's energy bills, as that was a clear indication of how efficient (or not) a house's running costs were.

They are neither a gold standard nor are they completely useless. They are somewhere in between those two points.

They do record a lot of house features accurately, like for example whether the house has condensing or non condensing boiler, loft insulation thickness, double glazing present etc (assuming the cert is up to date of course). These are all things that are easy to check on visual inspection. It's harder though to establish the actual energy useage or heat leak.

Looking at energy bills can be useful, but also depends very much on how frugal the last occupants were. Keeping a single room in a house at 18C can make a big difference than keeping the entire house at 22C for example.

Despite their inaccuracies, EPCs are the best appraisal of a houses energy saving features and likely energy consumption. They also provide some good info on where simple gains in performance might be gained.

They are pretty cheap to re do if the house has improvements or it is believed they are wrong. If a house someone wants to buy has been wrongly rated probably better to pay to get it re-rated or have a more comprehensive assessment rather than stick the head in the sand and believe (somewhat hopefully) that all the certs must be a load of rubbish because it suits a particular narrative.

Pythonesque · 22/08/2023 16:16

The EPCs I've looked at for a couple of old properties make me agree with the sceptics - they don't seem remotely fit for purpose.

Original poster
SunnyUpNorth · 23/08/2023 11:17

And so the plot thickens….

The estate agent said he thought the EPC was out of date (two years old) and he would have another done.

The previous one was an F with potential to be a D if all the recommendations were carried out. The new one is miraculously a D with potential to be a B if everything is carried out.

The only difference is they have taken into account that there is loft insulation (assumed none last time) and the fact that the newer extension has wall insulation.

I find it strange that these were only two of many suggestions last time which would have made it a D but now it apparently is a D and could be a B with the same recommendations as last time.

All sounds a bit dodgy to me but then does it really matter if we have the official cert now?!

OP posts:
C4tastrophe · 23/08/2023 11:22

@SunnyUpNorth looks like you are good to go!

KievLoverTwo · 23/08/2023 11:23

SunnyUpNorth · 23/08/2023 11:17

And so the plot thickens….

The estate agent said he thought the EPC was out of date (two years old) and he would have another done.

The previous one was an F with potential to be a D if all the recommendations were carried out. The new one is miraculously a D with potential to be a B if everything is carried out.

The only difference is they have taken into account that there is loft insulation (assumed none last time) and the fact that the newer extension has wall insulation.

I find it strange that these were only two of many suggestions last time which would have made it a D but now it apparently is a D and could be a B with the same recommendations as last time.

All sounds a bit dodgy to me but then does it really matter if we have the official cert now?!

It's very common for a new EPC to show a house as being able to achieve far higher ratings than an old one. If you compare old with new (there will be a link right at the bottom of the old one) you will see the suggestions of the types of improvements possible have changed. As technology improves you start to see new things creep into suggestions.

Aaaaand they shouldn't have even advertised it with an out of date EPC, that's illegal, but what do they care?

Good news for you.

Original poster
SunnyUpNorth · 23/08/2023 13:16

@KievLoverTwo it was only two years old and they last for ten years so not technically out of date. But yes good news I think!

OP posts:
KievLoverTwo · 23/08/2023 13:19

SunnyUpNorth · 23/08/2023 13:16

@KievLoverTwo it was only two years old and they last for ten years so not technically out of date. But yes good news I think!

Sounds like the EA employed someone to fiddle the rating if they know the EPC was causing you anxiety to me. There's absolutely no other reason to do another one on a two year old cert.

Arseholes.

I hate the whole EPC system.

BIossomtoes · 23/08/2023 13:24

This kind of reinforces my belief that they’re not worth the paper they’re written on. It’s a pointless cottage industry.

Original poster
SunnyUpNorth · 23/08/2023 13:30

Yep my feelings exactly!

OP posts:
caringcarer · 23/08/2023 13:54

Some things you can do easily. Install I loft lagging to recommend thickness about £800. This will generally get you 2-3 points. Make sure all lights are energy efficient that cost about £50. This will gain you 1-2 points. Other things like install a new boiler will get you 4-5 points. Install new gas central heating and individual thermostats so if a room is not used the radiator can be switched down lower will cost more but will gain you possibly 6-8 points. Cavity floors if a suspended floor 2 points. Cavity walls 3-4 points. You need to work out how many points you will need to at least get to a D rating. Then decide if you want to go ahead. Personally I'd not buy lower than a D rating as it will cost so.much to upgrade it.

caringcarer · 23/08/2023 13:57

I think new double glazing gets you 4-5 points also.

Froghat · 23/08/2023 15:21

caringcarer · 23/08/2023 13:57

I think new double glazing gets you 4-5 points also.

@caringcarer does secondary glazing make any difference?

Original poster
SunnyUpNorth · 23/08/2023 16:12

@caringcarer you seem to know your stuff! Would you be able to look at my update this morning and see what you think?

I understood it to be the case that some properties would never be able to achieve a C due to not meeting certain criteria such as not having a gas supply or not having cavity walls, is this not the case? Thanks so much.

OP posts:
caringcarer · 23/08/2023 16:34

@SunnyUpNorth, the EA would have had to get an independent assessor to do the EPC certificate. If you look on the online certificate there is a part that says what you need to do to improve the rating. Having the extension with part of the house getting cavity wall insulation would have given you more points, also loft insulation. If the certificate was over 10 years old they most likely have had a new boiler during this time. A new boiler gets a lot of points. I think you'd get some additional points for secondary double glazing but not as many as if fully integrated double glazing.

BIossomtoes · 23/08/2023 16:48

A new boiler gets a lot of points. I think you'd get some additional points for secondary double glazing but not as many as if fully integrated double glazing.

My parents’ house had a brand new combi boiler, newly installed rads with thermostats, newly installed UPVC double glazed windows and loft insulation. It got assessed as E. 🤷‍♀️

caringcarer · 23/08/2023 17:18

BIossomtoes · 23/08/2023 16:48

A new boiler gets a lot of points. I think you'd get some additional points for secondary double glazing but not as many as if fully integrated double glazing.

My parents’ house had a brand new combi boiler, newly installed rads with thermostats, newly installed UPVC double glazed windows and loft insulation. It got assessed as E. 🤷‍♀️

You can challenge the EPC ratings with the assessor.

Puccini1900 · 23/08/2023 17:28

My house had an 'F' rated EPC and it was colddd. Like, really, really cold.

Since then...
We added extra loft insulation
We've had the walls internally insulated - you can't tell any difference to room size - and it is amazingly snug.
We are in the process of replacing the worst windows
We are getting solar installed next month - they're very effective even in Scotland.

Harpings · 23/08/2023 21:40

Puccini1900 what kind of insulation did you install in the walls? And how easy was it to do? We are in the process of buying an old house in Scotland and going to need insulation. Cavity walls not an option apparently as it was built before that

Puccini1900 · 24/08/2023 08:08

@Harpings we actually just had kingspan. I know some people will cry that it's not breathable, but so far, that doesn't seem to have mattered (probably because there's a cavity gap between old wall, strapping, and insulation.)

It was quite a big, messy and disruptive job. But we needed to replaster / rewire anyway, so the whole house was turned upside down.

How easy? - we had builders do it, but I think you'd be able to DIY it, depending on your plastering skills. Frame the original wall (out of either wood or metal), leaving a cavity gap, then insulate, plaster board, and plaster.