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Original poster

Whose responsibility? Builder caused damage with knocking out a wall

52 replies

fifimummy · 07/08/2023 22:48

I'll be as concise and short as I can, but I'd really love some advice please 🥺
We're almost at the end of a side extension.
Builder started knocking a kitchen wall out downstairs and I went to the toilet above and had to get him to stop bashing because cracks were appearing before my eyes. He discovered the 1930s house didn't have a particularly amazing steel above what he was taking out...and then he got more support columns etc straight away.....problem is, it's caused considerable damage to the bathroom.....which is the only room we'd actually done some work to before this .....I'm going to try to add photos. It's old lime plaster so not dead hardy I guess.,...
My question is, should he offer to put it right? Or is it just one of those things that can happen with building work and I need to just sort it? I can't close the bathroom window fully any more, the tiles are unseated in places, the laminate floor we put down is buggered at the joins and there's pretty big cracks all around the top of the walls......the room is dusty hours after its wiped over .....we still owe him around £3k for transparency.....but lots of that is for things he says are extras
I moved into my beautiful mum's house (my childhood home) with my kids, after she passed away and I'm so sad about the damage and bloody stress, but also trying to not be clouded by sentimental stuff xxxx
So basically.....who should sort this xx thank you 💖

Whose responsibility? Builder caused damage with knocking out a wall
Whose responsibility? Builder caused damage with knocking out a wall
Whose responsibility? Builder caused damage with knocking out a wall
Whose responsibility? Builder caused damage with knocking out a wall
Whose responsibility? Builder caused damage with knocking out a wall
OP posts:
FrontEnd · 08/08/2023 00:07

Your builder needs to sort it via out their insurance. I would also insist on a structural engineer report to verify it was all ok (rather than relying on the builder to, literally, just plaster over the cracks). Good luck.

Aquamarine1029 · 08/08/2023 00:11

A few MONTHS ago?? Oh dear. You didn't get this investigated at the time?

Op, you need to deal with this immediately. This is serious structural damage.

Original poster
fifimummy · 08/08/2023 00:11

DrFoxtrot · 08/08/2023 00:07

You have lived with the massive cracks for months or have they only just appeared like that now since the work is complete?

They appeared roughly 4 months ago . I'll look at the date of the photo.
I've been being a crap adult and ignoring stuff and he kept saying it was safe and settlement from the banging etc, but I now need to address it before we sign off after he's sorted the radiator

OP posts:
Original poster
fifimummy · 08/08/2023 00:13

Aquamarine1029 · 08/08/2023 00:11

A few MONTHS ago?? Oh dear. You didn't get this investigated at the time?

Op, you need to deal with this immediately. This is serious structural damage.

I guess when plasterers and builders are telling you it's ok , you just believe it a bit though 🥺 my head isn't dead ok after losing my mum and I just assumed it could be sorted easily based on what I was told
Feel like a mug

OP posts:
Original poster
fifimummy · 08/08/2023 00:17

The wall being taken out...in the photo wasn't on the plans I had done by a fairly expensive architect
We were leaving it in and doing a utility room the other side
Builder offered the suggestion of making a big kitchen instead and I agreed because I preferred that idea

OP posts:
EbiRaisukaree · 08/08/2023 00:27

fifimummy · 08/08/2023 00:17

The wall being taken out...in the photo wasn't on the plans I had done by a fairly expensive architect
We were leaving it in and doing a utility room the other side
Builder offered the suggestion of making a big kitchen instead and I agreed because I preferred that idea

Then you need a structural engineer and a surveyor round, pronto tonto. Nobody has done any calculations to say that wall could safely removed, or specified what work would be needed to compensate for its loss. I’m shocked that you haven’t understood just how much your house has moved if the window opening in the bathroom has distorted to the extent you can’t close the window.

You might have to get the finishing of the room where the wall was removed undone so building regs can inspect the new steel, as well - they won’t just accept the builder’s word about what he put in. This is a giant mess, OP, and you have to sort it out.

Monty27 · 08/08/2023 00:34

Your planning hasn't been signed off or am I reading this wrong? If not I doubt whether you have a leg to stand on with insurance.

Radiodread · 08/08/2023 00:46

Bad stuff happens when doing building work sometimes, but unfortunately unless a builder had structural engineer drawings to go off, and was suitably insured… it is all on you as the householder :( unless you fancy taking the builder to court for redress.

some movement after building work is normal. That degree of movement doesn’t look normal. I hope you get your builder to come back and fix everything up with proper support from below.

Canisaysomething · 08/08/2023 00:49

So you paid for a professional service and then ignored the architect's drawings and just knocked a wall out because the builder suggested it? That building site photo is a mess and your builder is a cowboy. Go back to your architect and ask for professional advice quickly and don't pay the builder any more money.

The reason architects are expensive is because they are regulated, qualified and insured. Anyone off the street can call themselves a builder.

Whyohwhyohwhy123 · 08/08/2023 00:55

Did you tell your house insurance you were doing major building work?
You need a structural engineer to assess it all.
Have you spoken to the building inspector as if you haven’t how do you know if they are happy and will issue a completion certificate?

PragmaticWench · 08/08/2023 06:23

I think this is what happened, from what you've said?

You had an architect draw up plans, not including calculating removing that wall.
During the build your builder suggested removing the wall in the kitchen and you said yes. There weren't any structural engineer calculations done before to see if that was safe. The builder caused massive structural damage above when he removed the wall.
After removing the wall he propped it up, then had structural calculations done and put in a steel?

The wall was removed months ago, the downstairs is now fixed but your builder is trying to ignore the structural damage he caused.

OP if that's a correct assessment then you need a structural engineer in ASAP to assess the damage and your builder needs to fix it.

Overthebow · 08/08/2023 06:39

This happened months ago? Have you contacted your buildings insurance during that time? This is pretty serious.

Ozziedream · 08/08/2023 06:46

This is not on the builder - the only time his insurance would step up would be if he ignored your clear instructions or did not follow plans. Other professionals can give a view on wall removal or supports (eg builder, surveyor, architect) but only a structural engineer is appropriately qualified to work out the bearing capabilities and will have the appropriate insurance to cover if they get it wrong. A structural engineer is who you need now.

Solachan · 08/08/2023 06:47

.looking at photo, it seems the part of wall removed is that which abuts the exterior wall ie runs at 90 Deg to the wall.
Is that correct?
I can see flooring joists run parallel to the removed wall , hence I suppose thinking was as the joist didn't bear on the wall then it wasn't load bearing.
I would suggest that the removed wall actually acted as a buttres and so stabilised the exterior wall .
As this wall has now gone the exterior wall has bowed out at mid level..this ties up with cracks above.
More about bowing than dropping.
..and insurance won't touch it.By taking down a wall not in remit , your outside of plans, SE and BC responsibly.
Best you can hope is builder has PL insurance...
I feel for you..
Best of luck..

Ozziedream · 08/08/2023 06:49

Though I agree that in this situation I would absolutely try the builder’s insurance : I’m just following through the likely arguments that his insurers would make in that it was up to the householder to get engineer sign off. Sorry you’re in this situation OP.

C4tastrophe · 08/08/2023 06:58

Do you have any ‘before’ pictures of the wall?
Usually a builder will use acrows on the internal ceiling if there are joists going I to the external wall, then knock holes in the wall and insert ‘needles’ and acrow them to support the external wall.
There must have been something there, otherwise why would there have been an existing steel in the wall?

WeAreTheHeroes · 08/08/2023 07:01

What a mess OP. No help to you now, but when we had the original exterior wall removed to open up our kitchen, we had a structural engineer's calculations and a steel was put in to support each leaf of the wall above. The builder propped everything and we didn't get so much as a crack in the plaster.

You do know that if an original wall is removed like that it needs signing off by building control? Do you have the certificate from them? Some councils show building control applications on their website so you may be able to see what's been signed off.

EllenVannen · 08/08/2023 07:09

My blood is running cold just reading this OP.

My husband and I inherited an old cottage and were doing renovations. We asked a builder if he could extend the kitchen into the outhouse. The wall separating the two areas was new so he assumed it was non-supporting and there was a RSG in place.

Before he knocked the wall out he pulled down the false kitchen ceiling to assess the situation. He discovered, to his horror, that part of the back wall of the property was held up by a long piece of wood!

Fortunately we weren't living in the property and the walls were stone and 4' thick so more stable than your average house.

He went back to his yard to get some Acrow props and then took measurements for an RSG. That was inserted and the work completed and signed off by the Building Regs guy.

I'm sorry OP but it sounds like your builder is wearing 6-guns and a stetson. Please get a structural engineer round now.

SphincterSaysWhat · 08/08/2023 07:11

Be very, very careful that your buildings insurance isn't voided by you having work done without telling them. Look at your original policy and check for clauses re: home improvements etc.

If it says you have to inform them and you didn't, don't tell them you had work done. Sort it out yourself.

Not many people know that many home insurance policies ask for notification when undertaking works.

unlikelychump · 08/08/2023 07:13

Oh shite op. I don't think I'd be sleeping there either.

I didn't sleep well when my house was propped especially because of the kids.

I think 4 Mo is a long time to hope this goes away. You haven't mentioned a structural engineer at all yet. Have you got one?

(If you are in east west mids I can recommend one)

LIZS · 08/08/2023 07:20

So it has been like that for four minths and he has now "finished" Shock Has anyone certified it as safe if was not on your original plans?

Madhoney · 08/08/2023 07:30

This is a stressful story just to read. I do hope you get it all sorted.

Solachan · 08/08/2023 08:13

As a PP says, there will be counter arguments from the builders insurance, should you get that far.

I imagine at the point the builder made the suggestion to remove the wall, that was the point for you to say " great, I'll talk to my SE about it '..

Your own insurance won't touch it
, If you do have site insurance, the fact you agreed to take down a wall not covered by plans etc , means they have a way out..
Not sure if you have a mortgage, but if you do , maybe they need to be informed?..
Sorry.

Original poster
fifimummy · 08/08/2023 08:58

Don't want to just read and run, but I'm just caught up with comments and got to go to work, so will reply to stuff later, but I really appreciate your comments x I might also get my Dad to join and add some insight as he was here a lot while I was at work xxx
He'll know more about the Structural engineer, I do know that the council building control person was consulted a lot and did visits x

OP posts:
AmandaHoldensLips · 08/08/2023 09:17

Burying your head in the sand isn't going to help. Just take a deep breath and deal with it. Make a list and start making phone calls. Call the builder and tell him you need a meeting and that he is to bring a copy of his insurance certificate.