Advice for cash buyer please - I am struggling to navigate property market

[heartfullofpineapple]

Not sure that the title gives this post justice but there are a number of things niggling me and I'd really like a buyers/sellers' perspective please.

In short I am a cash buyer who has recently (six weeks ago) put in and had an offer accepted on a house.

I have instructed solicitors, proved funds and recently paid for a Home Buyers Level 2 survey with valuation.

The survey has come back with a few "number threes" such as damp, secondary gazing, gas boiler and electrics. Most of these were because the vendor did not have the correct certificate at hand and I know they will be addressed in fuller solicitors inventory.

The main issue for me is electrics so will get someone in to double check those and give me a quote for the work.

I know from looking online I do that via estate agent and also sent part H of survey report to solicitor - however how do negotiations then start (if the work is estimated to be at several thousands) - do I offer to do 50/50 with vendor or do I ask them to do the work? Do I try and negotiate for full price of works to be deducted from agreed price?

For context I thought I was in an excellent position for vendors - I am mortgage free, not in a chain and have agreed price at 2% less than asking price.

The seller has put house on market once before and withdrew (before any offers) two years ago. They are now looking for a suitable property to downsize to but don't seem to be doing anything (the estate agent says they need "careful handling" as they were the previous agents when she listed before - and it is sensitive as she has had a bereavement (three years ago) - she wants a flat/bungalow of which there are hundreds near us!)

My question is how do I approach the survey and ask re further investigation on electrics without "spooking" her?

Also what do I do if she is protracting this more than she needs to?

I know in the current market I am an "attractive" buyer to many and I'm not sure she realises this.

In other circumstances I'd still be looking elsewhere but I really like this property so am trying to be as diplomatic as possible.

Any advice and views greatly appreciated - thank you.

Just because your survey says X, Y, and Z need doing, and it will cost you - lets say £20K - it does not automatically mean that you can negotiate that £20K off (the cost of doing that work), off the agreed price.

If the condition of the property was apparent when you viewed and then offered, then the price will have already taken into account the condition of the property.
So, for example, the secondary glazing - if you want to upgrade that, fine, but you offered the price you were prepared to pay, knowing that was there.

It’s a bit of a tricky situation to be in. If the house was generally looking quite dated with very old fashioned carpets, kitchens and bathrooms etc, I would make a point of asking at the viewing about when the electrics were last updated, how old the boiler is, if there had ever been any problems with the roof, guttering, damp and so on so I could gauge whether to factor in a budget for those.

Is the asking price cheap for the area? If so, the condition and what needs updating will have been costed into the asking price if the agent is any good and the seller is willing to move.

You can sometimes tell how new the windows are from the EPC: excellent, average, poor. So I would have researched in advance and had a good inspection during the first viewing.

If you had to negotiate up all the way to just under 2% under asking price in a market when offers 10% are being accepted, I suspect she won’t agree to a single penny off, no matter what evidence is presented, along with costs.

However, she’s exceptionally luck to have a cash buyer paying 98% of asking right now. You need to decide in your mind if you are prepared to lose tens of thousands to update the house in future, or not. Surveyors tend to err on the side of caution. Just because an electrics upgrade is recommended doesn’t mean they are about to fail, or even that they need doing within the next ten years. Once you have decided if the house is worth future expenditure, have a chat with the EA about the survey findings, and see what they say when you mention the costs you have been quoted. If they understand her in the way they claim, they should be able to guide you, e.g. ‘I think she’ll be open to taking a little bit off’ or ‘she can’t afford to take less and will find another buyer.’

That she is sensitive after her bereavement and doesn’t seem to be finding future homes are probably connected. She doesn’t want to leave the home she shared with her partner. She may be being unduly fussy because, whilst she knows moving is the thing she needs to do, her heart isn’t really in it.

That said, it’s an absolutely horrible market and most of the houses out there are either terrible, need a ton of updating, or are massively overpriced. You have to ask yourself how long you are prepared to wait for this home. Six months, a year? It could take that long, so have a think about your own needs and be realistic rather than saying ‘there are tons of flats and bungalows out there.’ The older you get, the more specific you are about your needs, and the more you know what you absolutely do NOT want, and that rules a lot of homes out. Remember this will be her last home, and she will want it to be right. That doesn’t help you get into the house more quickly, but perhaps you will understand why things aren’t moving quickly for you.

We once offered on a house where a couple only wanted a bungalow on one specific estate nearby, and they were literally waiting for someone to die to move. They wouldn’t move anywhere else. I checked back a year after our offer was refused and they took it off the market and never sold. Still waiting for someone to die, I guess. That’s what old age does to you!

That's an excellent post from @KievLoverTwo

Ooh, thanks, blush!

Typos sponsored by two glasses of wine, half a brandy and no dinner, because my own home search is driving me doo-lally.

Her bereavement was 3 years ago so hopefully she is more committed to the move now and able to cope with the inevitable ups and downs it will take to get the sale all the way to Completion.

When you get a quote for the electrics, it is quite acceptable to ask for a reduction on price following the bad survey. I suggest 50% of the cost as a starting point although you may have to be a little flexible on that.

Obviously it's not acceptable to pick up every little thing listed on the survey but it doesn't sound like you're doing that.

I have just put my dms house on the market. The price it has been put on at is the price it is worth in its current condition. I know it would benefit from a new kitchen, but the one in there is perfectly ok, so if someone offered 10k below asking and said it was because it needed a new kitchen I wouldn’t take them on. One guy offered 10k below asking because the second bedroom was ‘too small’. I’m not sure reducing it by 10k will make the bedroom miraculously bigger!
My point is, you can’t automatically expect any reduction after survey, especially if you’re already getting it at a reduced price.

Sadly there is no incentive for your seller to hurry: the longer she waits before offering, the more house prices are likely to fall and as you are a cash buyer she hasn’t got the pressure of a chain behind her. Add to that her bereavement: it can be extraordinarily difficult to motivate yourself to move on to that next stage of leaving a home where you have so many memories of a partner or family member. I have sold two homes following bereavements and both times it was terrible - packing up and leaving is a hard thing to face into, even though I actually wanted to sell and let new owners breathe new life into the properties.

I would make the EA aware that whilst you are sympathetic to seller’s situation, you do have in mind that you would like to be living in your new home by dd.mm.yy (make it a reasonable date) and could the EA gently have a conversation with the seller to make her aware that you’d like to have an update next week how she is getting on with her property search.

Not for a new kitchen no, because the condition of the kitchen is something you can see for yourself when you view the property.

But the electrics are a different matter in my opinion. So it depends on what the electrics survey reveals, but if there are problems then it is reasonable that the owner should be asked to contribute to the cost of putting them right. If she refuses, she faces the chance of losing the sale (to an excellent buyer) and the problem coming up again to whoever she sells the property to next time.

Thank you all for very helpful points that have given me a lot to think about.

The house is lovely and not at all dated and I really don't want to nitpick at everything in the report as I know they tend to err on the side of caution.

It's roughly 100 years old (the house not the seller!) so I expect damp, need for new windows etc in a property of that age.

I know this will have been taken into account during valuation for sale. It's only really the electrics that are worrying me (I have a weird fear of electricity!) and the report said: "The main consumer unit (fusebox) is dated and should be replaced along with associated re-wiring. Other elements of the electrical system appear to be dated, such as fittings to the upper floor and upgrading and renewal may be required."

This wasn't something I spotted on viewings and I'm not sure that the seller was aware either.

I think next step is to get someone in and see how much it would cost as you all have suggested.

I don't like haggling but I guess I have to decide whether it's worthwhile to proceed now rather than drag this out and lose more money down the line.

I understand what you are saying about her reluctance to move and lack of incentive as I am a cash buyer but it's frustrating. Ironically I am older than her so age is not the factor here.

Electrics will almost always come back at level 3, surveyors are not electricians and will cover their arse

Yep - it isn’t the price you need to worry about, it is the timing. Set yourself a date at which you will walk away if the seller is not ‘procedable’ as estate agents say, with an offer on another property. And be ruthless about it, no ‘well, they are almost about to decide’ from their side.

Incorrect. The person making the offer may not be competent to make such an assessment, hence the survey x

@heartfullofpineapple, I share your 'weird fear of electricity', so do understand your position. Such was my anxiety that I had a condition report done by a qualified electrician for my house, which is about the same age as the one you hope to buy, a few years back after the power cut out a couple of times. It's called a Domestic Electrical Installation Condition Report and cost about £250 as I recall. This is about safety checking rather than how old everything is, and I was surprised to find that the older electrics were perfectly safe. Some newer wiring associated with the new kitchen I'd recently had put in (long story) had caused the outages, but this was rectified at a low cost. So this is something you could ask for perhaps, or do yourself if you move in and are concerned about the upstairs wiring that "may" (or may not) need to be replaced. Replacing the fusebox doesn't sound like a major issue.

Thanks @ClematisBlue49 - condition report sounds a good idea.

Also thanks for sharing y fear of electricity too nice to know I am not alone!

I would get an electrician to do a condition report on the electrics, this should cost about £200-300. Once the outcome of that is known you can decide further. We had our new property re-wired after a condition report, for a large 4 bed detached it was around £6k if I remember correctly. The age of it suggests an upgrade may be needed. I am a building surveyor, and no I am not an electrician but I am experienced and knowledgeable enough to know when a consumer unit and associated fixtures and fittings etc are approaching end of life.

It clearly isn't correct @oiltrader .

Yes, you have a survey done to uncover things you can't see / aren't an expert in, and of course you go back and negotiate over those, but the survey will also mention things that are perfectly apparent to the buyer, and indeed to the EA when they first valued the property, and they are things that will have been taken into account in the pricing and in the offer.
I've looked round plenty of houses where it was apparent to the most amateur eye that you were going to have to replace all the wiring and boiler / central heating, from the get go, and those houses were priced to reflect that.

I mean, in any negotiation, you can ask, but you also have to be sensible if you don't want to waste everyone's time, and piss off the vendor completely.

*isn't incorrect

@UsingChangeofName

I understand what you are saying but I am no expert in electricals.

I have let a fair few things "slide" in the report and I "may" ask for negotiation if further investigations in regard to the electrics uncover a shedload of work and expense that I as a layperson did not notice on making an offer.

This is not directed at you but I feel these threads are combative without the need to be.

I am a buyer who wants things to be as seamless and "honest" as possible.

I know there are very many people on MN and beyond struggling to secure a sale/purchase but sometimes the tone seems resentful to someone asking a question.

I'd be asking myself what price I'm happy paying, with the issues highlighted. If you're happy to proceed at the offer price, then do so.

If not, decide how much you want it reduced by and forward that to her. No bluffing or games, just be straight forward.

I think the saying 'there's no harm in asking' is not true with house buying, you can risk pissing vendors off and this one sounds easily spooked anyway.

Personally though I would be more concerned with the damp than the electrics; they always fail these and the regulations change regularly so 99% of houses will fail anyway.

Damp however...

Yes, it's acceptable to negotiate following a survey if issues arise eg electrics/ damp.
My main concern about what you have written is that the seller doesn't sound fully committed/ as if she is really intending to move.
Agree that lots of people on here seem to take neutral questions personally.

@ReyFinn

Thank you for this: I think the saying 'there's no harm in asking' is not true with house buying, you can risk pissing vendors off and this one sounds easily spooked anyway.

I agree that some rules totally go out of the window when house buying .... am now off to re-read the damp report!

@rainingsnoring I agree I don't know where she is emotionally, practically or anywhere else. She is being advised by her adult child who lives abroad.

As people have said try not to be too worried about electrics. The standards get updated so frequently that even work done 12 months ago can be classed as not up to code. It doesn't mean it's unsafe it just means it met the standard required at the time.

Sounds like getting an electrician in to do a more in depth look is wise to put your fears to rest.

My mortgage broker always said if it's something you'd have to replace like boiler/kitchen etc it's not worth haggling over, as those costs are just part and parcel of owning a house. Huge work such as significant damp or roof needing replacing is reason to negotiate.

As many surveys etc as you get you'll probably always come across bodge jobs and work that needs doing that you hadn't realised. Just seems to be part of owning a house.

Unfortunately it is a buyers market now. Buyers will naturally want to protect themselves from instant losses so will leaverage the survey to get more off. DH did this for us when we bought our forever home in 2010 x

FTB?
Doing this on your own?
inheritance?

op you need professional financial advice

The only pathway to renegotiating the price after survey is how the valuation compares to the figure you’ve offered. If they’re the same you don’t have a leg to stand on. As an EA I’ve had very few Vendors who will agree a reduction if the survey has confirmed that it’s worth the offered price regardless of the detail within the report.